More Tau Picturez & Information

More Tau photos from the upcoming White Dwarf. Thanks some random dude…!

Includes Farsight :). And it’s released April 6th.

This is stuff both directly from the codex and from the White Dwarf (and we know what they are like with rules and how the game actually works).


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215 responses to More Tau Picturez & Information

Special character is "like" Chronus for tanks.

Tank Hunters. Potential cover boost. Tank can overwatch.

Hammerhead roughly 160-170 WITH character.

Riptide roughly is T6/W4/2 Sv/5 invul with the special option working on a 3 or higher (i.e. 3plusplus , better blast, etc.). Around 175 pts with Ion Cannon (S8 Ap2 blast; super charge takes to S9?).

Maybe more than 4 wounds – 5 wounds!? And more gun options outside of Ion cannon – supporting missile pods?

Are my crisis suits becoming obsolete?

I don't think so. Farsight would be the only one and haven't heard about him but the reports from before were indicating no.

I hope they are wrong though lol

Do we have any word on any other troops choices? Pathfinders in Troops would be awesome – and a HQ making stealth suits troops would be equally awesome (Although it would leave that fast attack slot looking quite empty – but then again, I assume that's where the fliers are gonna go?!)

One thing that I keep thinking is how is the T'au FoC gonna hold all this cool stuff? Heavy Support fighting between Hammerhead and Broadside, Crisis and Riptide fighting over elites!

Just Kroot so far. Not sure if stealth suits switch with shadowsun or anything.

Fast Attack is where new fliers are going and we still have Pathfinders and Piranhas (which are cheaper I think).

Having two good units in a FoC is good – more is better as long as every FoC has this. So we just need to hope the other FoCs are just as good haha.

The heavy gun drones? Please tell me they come with more than just a twin-linked burst cannon and an option to swap half of it out for a markerlight this time around. FW's HGDs were completely useless in their loadout and FOC slot (Heavy).

Supporting fire allows other Tau units within 6" to overwatch a charging unit as well. Not sure if this is all Tau units or just specific types.

Markerlights are for all intents and purposes, the same. Buff BS, remove cover. BS can be buffed for Overwatch but not sure if this counts for Skyfire, too.

Great find Kirby, keep them coming!

I haven't seen any photos of the Riptide with the magical "Rail Cannons", is it definitely true that these have them?! I imagine there will be some serious rage if they don't have them!

Also, if the Hammerhead WITH the special character is 160-170, does that mean it's 120-135 base (that would be awesome!) I would guess 135, as that's what things like Psyfledreads, BA Autolas', DA Trilas' and other similar battle tanks

I haven't heard anything about them. It starts with a Burst cannon (of giantness) though and can buy a Skyfire option.__In the pictures we can see underslung plasma rifles with the burst cannon.__IDK base cost for Hammerhead but that appears to be about right. I'd still imagine one hammerhead + 2 broadside units with the info I have but it might go the other way, too.

Surely it's not just a burst cannon – I presume it's got it's own rules?! S8 is still enough that a unit of 3 have a decent chance of getting 1 pen even on AV12 – especially important with that skyfire option (Cursed Vendettas!)

Does it really only have a 5++ given that massive shield generator on it's arm? (Or is that linked with the 3++ it can get when it decides where the power is going?)

It'll be some super burst cannon; S6/7 with more shoots, etc. It won't be the option that's used though.

Base is 5++ ya – the power up goes to 3++.

Notice the missile pods on the shoulder pads as well so they're more likely to be used than the Burst Cannon i.e. Ion Cannon + missile pods is likely to see use; potentially Skyfire as well based on cost.

They looked like Smart Missiles to me (although thinking about it the only difference between the two model wise is MP = 3 missiles, SMS = 6)

Ion Cannon + Missile pods seems like good S8/7 spam, will be interesting to know whether it's just the guns that have skyfire, or if it's the model itself. T'au sound like they're going to be able to really counter those Necron's hard, I count at least 3 different skyfire units, in 2 different slots with 2+ saves/AV13! And T'au never had any issues taking down quantum shielding!

Depends if the Riptide has those rail cannons or not (if it doesn't, it might be an issue!), piranhas still have fusion blasters remember!

Sweet suicidal units! IMO the Piranha's need to have a multimelta not just a meltagun. Leave the meltaguns to stealth and Crisis suits.

Looking at the 2nd picture with the Riptide on te right page. It seems like the gun on his left arm has the same muzzle as that of a railgun, right?

However, the gun in that picture doesn't match with the gun in the first leaked picture where the Riptide is posed looking to the left with the gun in his right arm. The barrel on the end of the above picture resembles a railgun far more than it does any existing ion weapons.

6 different types of drones.

Grav inhibitor
pulse accelerator
recon drone (which can fit in the turret cupola of a devikfish and provide communication relays and fire support)

In the last picture of the riptide, both weapon options have a second, underslung weapon on the same arm, for example, burst weapon and twin linked plasma

Has everyone else already noticed this

Cadre Fireblade –

IC with split fire, markerlight, supporting fire, volley fire (+1 shot for Pulse Rifles/Carbines if unit and IC do not move).

Upgrade for Fire Warrior units – not sure if an actual IC or just has LoS! properties, etc.

I just don't get why they decided those stupid booms connecting the wings and tail were appropriate, so not needed.

It would lead to a lot of "empty space" inbetween the boom and the fuselage… or some sort of awkward 'pillar of foam.' I have no doubts the guys at Battlefoam will figure it out (and I don't play Tau anyway) but, yeah, these are the odd thoughts that occur to me.

i think that it makes the plane look more square which is how the battle suits have always looked like

Same is true of Crisis suits. Pilot is curled up in the chest. (he has a little view port if you look, though presumably he's doing everything via screens)

You're not true. I saw a cutaway in some GW book that shows the pilot curled up almost like a fetus in the chest (didn't look comfortable). A GW book is a lot more canon than a videogame.

In any case, look at the thing….it's a very narrow neck on a gimble. You couldn't fit tau head up there, and it would be streched out, anyway.

The flyers look much better from above; talk about the importance of getting a model from its good side! Though I'm still concerned about their armaments. Here's hoping the rumoured ion weapon in their tail section is equivalent to the Riptide's ion weapon, though without the blast.

I can't say I'm much of a fan of the redesigned XV88s, though. The railguns just make more sense on the shoulders, especially if it's taking plasma as its secondary. They're long-range anti-tank, so they'd need relatively little range of movement, while the secondaries, especially plasma, would need to swing fairly freely to engage close-in targets. Plus, they just look better if it looks like they're bracing themselves, sumo-style, to fire, rather than blasting away from the hip.

Also, that new Farsight model is the one that was shown off at Games Day years ago; I have a picture of it on my computer from 2011, and the image info says it was taken in 2009. Talk about getting stuck in development hell!

I guess this is very much a matter of taste. I have only ever bought the XV-88s from Forge World so I could get the underslung railguns.

Personally I think it looks much better.

I disagree. I personally prefer the underslung style and I like the fact that the new broadsides are a lot bulkier than the old ones.

I hated the flyers from the other angle but the view from above gives a great WWII bomber sort of look and I love it.

Great findings so far,
as we know markerlights are the Tau´s strongsuit, but pathfinders are usually the first to get shot, so is there an option for other units to take them (besides overpriced drones)?

I wish I had done that with the XV-88/9s that now have broken ankles -_-
At least I won't have to worry about the Riptide 😉

Kroot are shown in the codex. In the section where it shows you all the painted minis Kroot are in there. I would assume then that they are part of the codex

Wow thanks for this information!

Are crisis teams still limited to 3 max, or has the squad size gotten larger? With these new riptides taking up my elite slots I don’t know how useful my 18+ crisis suits will be…

Ok. That's fine — Hopefully bodyguard suits for HQ units are cheaper so I can do some crisis teams there, plus 1 or 2 in elites aided by their big brother Riptide. I'm definitely getting one, strongly considering buying 2….

So, for 5 points more than at present, they lose Overwatch, lose 2 points of strength from their main gun, continue to lack an invulnerable save and be hugely vulnerable to S8, and all they gain in return is Skyfire? Weak.

If they are Slow & Purposeful (as previous rumors have stated) then they cannot fire Overwatch.

Currently the wording of advanced stabilization systems allows overwatch because it only grants S&P during the tau player's turn. Proper S&P would disallow overwatch completely.

Aren't they S&P now? Which prohibits Overwatch? Whereas the Advanced Stabilization System used to specifically work only in the Tau player's turn, allowing for railgun overwatch in the enemy player's turn.

Alright, they gain Skyfire and Interceptor. Still feels like a bit of a lopsided trade in exchange for such a relatively huge nerf to the railgun.

Ah not sure if they have S&P.

The way the ruling works is at the beginning of the shooting phase they can choose to have skyfire or not.

Yes the railgun has been nerfed though.

well lets hope there´s an upgrade to T5 for Broadsides, otherwise they are a skyfire plattform on an 60mm base, that gets instakilled by one lascannon shot – a feast for a verndetta!

My Broadsides never leave without at least 2 drones, but its just that the profile doesnt fit a long range shooting model on the same level as tanks and dreadnoughts. I was hoping GW would fix that. Besides, shield drones cost 15 pts per piece, take a slot and increase the chance of the unit running off the table. Just compare a broadside to a slightly cheaper kyborg with T5 NUrgle upgrade, his broader range of weaponry, inv. save etc.

so its true, they cost more and lost strenght. Dont know if I´m happy trading skyfire for the best tank hunter tau provide ..

Do they get that funky rule in last summer's rumored ruleset where you draw a line and the cannon goes through multiple units?

Having a hard time believing Tau would have less options for S10 than Imperial armies.

They're not Imperials, that's why. If they had been, they wouldn't have had it taken away.

It's incredibly strange that with all this info we're getting from various sources, nothing really has been said about Kroot other than the initial "they are in". Now i'm starting to wonder — you would imagine that at least one unit of Kroot would be used in the WD battle report, and we would see or hear about their new cheaper point costs (assuming they are cheaper).

Tau players might actually lose their Kroot and Vespid until this rumored "Ally" book comes out in the late spring/summer/fall. That would be a frustrating thing for people who like using those models.

There were some solid thoughts on Kroot before with rules, etc. but since they might not have new models soon, they might not want to showcase them. But yes, quite possibly they have been cut until this silly ally supplement book which would be frustrating but that would be very strange as GW generally never removes units from books. Squats being the exception.

Do you have an idea what else would be in this allied supplement, if it were true? I haven't seen much on it.

Hints and Rumors mostly, Gene-stealer Cults, Kroot, and more, along with new allied rules for secondary detachments, etc.

We are patiently waiting, and their have been whispers that its release is supposed to be sometime around the same time frame as the Tau codex. So for May or June perhaps

To be fair, they didn't remove pariahs so much as rename them and change the fluff. As it stood, they had some interesting interactions with the old flayed ones, but the fact that they were such a risky unit to take meant that they hovered somewhere in the vicinity of damn-near-useless. Cut that with the new fluff outlining the Necrons as being more xenophobic than the imperium and playing the long game out harder than the eldar, and it makes sense to see them retconned.

Firstly, thank you for the info Kirby. It is appreciated.

Secondly, Broadsides got better, not worse. Sure, they can't take out AV14 like they used to, but they're awesome multi-taskers now.

Exactly, so they got worse. If lascannons went from S9 to S7, would you say they got better or worse?

the point is a las cannon is an AT weapon. the Tau Rail weapons have been split up even more; Rail GUNS are S8 AP1 and mounted on broadsides who can SKYFIRE(if rumours are true) and RailCANNONs are the old S10AP1 Railgun

rather than just introducing the riptide with more powerful weapons, making the broadside redundant, they have balanced them out and given them a different purpose.

And the broadsides were our AT. Now we lost it. Tell me how that isn't a nerf?
And no, the have not balanced anything out.

Other armies that aren't as reliant on shooting as Tau, can actually handle getting close to their targets.
Have you ever tried to take some Tau into close combat? Exactly.

And writing in capitals does not make your point any more valid and just shows that you are unsure of how to operate your CAPS lock appropriately.
Changing an iconic weapon from S10 to S8 and not leaving the option to remain S10 is a nerf. Leaving us with the Hammerhead as our only AT is a huge nerf. The riptide may have a railcannon, but rumours don't seem to be able to agree on this yet.

I'm commenting on the rumours. I'll comment on the codex when it is out.

And I'm not going to slice my writsts, but it does look like I will be packing my Tau army away and waiting for the next Codex cycle.
/shrugs

Damn these rumours and sending every army to the foam. "I guess better wait and see if the next codex will show my old unit being as good again"

XV88s can’t take out anything like they used to. Against any big unit that isn’t a flyer (tanks, apcs, walkers, T7 MCs) they are far less capable than they used to be. They now have as much trouble killing a Chimera as they used to killing a Land Raider. And even against flyers, while they’re now somewhat better shots (twin-linked 4s vs twin-linked 6s), those shots that do hit are much more likely to glance, or even fail to cause any damage at all, against the most dangerous (read, AV11) flyers.

At best, they’re perhaps slightly better at shooting down flyers, though this will make them blindingly obvious targets for the enemy’s first turn of shooting, and of the flyers themselves when they turn up. But in exchange for that, they have become significantly worse at dealing with every other large unit in the game. And at worse, they’ve traded more hits against flyers for fewer damahe rolls, and are still worse against everything else.

I disagree. They are definitely worse against AV13/AV14, everyone can agree on that. But now they are the best Anti-Flyer ground unit in the game. In addition, they are also either tied for first or take second in both "chance to explode" versus AV12 and under vehicles compared to most other non-melta (i.e. ranged) units.

I assumed they were BS4 twin linked when I ran the numbers, so it's entirely possible that may not happen. But, for theorycrafting, they're looking pretty nice right now. Certainly, we won't see the broadside spam that Tau use now, but who cares? They can now fill the rhino busting/flyer downing/rifledread exploding role. At 72 inches, no less (or something).

Ahhh, I see. When you say they haven’t got worse, you are in fact comparing them to other races’ AT weapons. Well sir, that’s a ridiculous way to do it, but at least it makes a certain sense. But the rest of us are saying, and you literally cannot argue against this, that compared to the current XV88s, these new XV88s are worse at dealing with nearly every target on the battlefield. There’s no indication they’re BS4 now, so all that’s changed is that their weapons are weaker, and they’re more expensive. Given that XV88s had a specific role, and that that role was ranged anti-vehicle/walker/MC, and that after this change they will be far, far less capable in this role,I ask you sir, how can one possibly concludevanytging but that XV87s have gotten much weaker in their traditional role?

Well, I'm coming at it from a different angle than you. I don't own any Tau yet, so my comparisons are against anything else that I could bring as an ally to fill a certain role. Additionally, if I like the codex enough, I'll start up a Tau army, but I already know I just won't rely on Broadsides to do what another unit should (like metlas, or Railcannons, or something, who knows yet).

So did they take a nerf? Maybe from your viewpoint. I regard it as a trade…they gave up AV13/AV14 to fill a different role. Is that really so bad? They just do something different now, and you fill what their "traditional role" used to be with something else.

Plus, insert usual rabble about "welcome to 40k codex releases" and whatnot.

So, you're coming at it from a totally meaningless tabula rasa-like state, then? Because if you don't have any opinion on the pre-existing codex, then you can't really say whether or not a unit's changes have made them worse or better.

And no, they didn't just 'give up AV13/14', they became across-the-board worse at damaging any and all AV-bearing models.

"I just won't rely on Broadsides to do what another unit should (like metlas"

Hah! Good luck finding decent melta-toters in a Tau cadre!

Seriously? Are you this childish all the time?

I don't have to play the Tau army to read their codex and form an opinion. I couldn't care less that what GW is doing is messing with your vision for Tau. Stop playing the game if you disagree so much, our community will be the better for it.

Absolutely, you don't have to play the army to have an opinion. But if you have no on-the-table understanding of what came before, you shouldn't expect your opinion to carry much weight when you claim a change that weakens a unit, and arguably the army overall, is actually somehow an improvement.

Previously, Tau had two sources of serious anti-tank, both of them Heavy Support, compared to most other armies which have them in their troops, on their transports, and in their FA and HS slots; after this change, Tau still appear to have two sources, only now it's the Hammerhead (superior mobility, inferior accuracy) and the XV104 (superior protection, undoubtedly higher points cost). Since there's no indication of being able to field Hammerheads as squadrons, or of being able to field XV104s in units, that means an overall reduction in the amount of meaningful anti-tank the army has available to it. Yes, there are still missile pods and ion cannons, and yes, with hull points these are more reliable than they used to be. But if you took a Marine codex whose only source of AT was Lascannon Devs and single-las Preds, and suddenly swapped out those Devs' lascannons for Skyfire-equipped autocannons, well, in the eyes of pretty much everyone that would be a serious nerf. It's the same idea here. The only good anti-tank was railguns, and now the most reliable of those railguns have been downgraded to either weak lascannons or beefed-up krak missiles.

"Stop playing the game if you disagree so much, our community will be the better for it. "

Ah yes, 'if you don't like it, quit'. Because that's certainly a mature, and not at all childish, argument to fall back on. ^_~

Tell you what, if you apologize to me, I'll take the time to explain to you why you're wrong. I don't normally slow down this much, but if you're nice this time, I'll walk you through it.

Yeah, I agree. Broadsides were already decent at taking downflyers. 2 TL shots (2 suits) already had a decent chance to hit, Str 10 ap1 meat you were really, really likely to kill it from there.

Not excited about str 8. It doesn't matter if it's skyfire. I probably won't be using Broadsides much anymore.

Yeah, 85 points for a Terminator without an invulnerable save and BS3, armed with a beefed-up krak missile, is sort of underwhelming. Skyfire is a nice enough trick, but between Allied flyers with lascannons and our own flyers with missile pods and seeker missiles, it’s not -that- amazing.

I can't be the only one that has a sneaking suspicion that the broadside "nerf" is actually a misunderstanding. To me, it sounds like the 'double barrel' gun has TWO shots at strength 8 but is not twin-linked, and they would also have access to a twin-linked railgun for more points. Salt. Rulebook in hand. Blah blah Blah. For the Greater Good 😀

Word from before is that Disruption Pods are +1 to cover saves (or maybe Stealth.) No info specifically on the Devilfish, though it almost certainly got cheaper.

Everyone is up in arms about the XV88 nerf. Call it what you will but we just don't have enough information. All we have is rumors and speculation. That being said, what we do know does not sound bad and we don't have specifics yet . For all we know we will be able to bring riptides in groups of 3(like a tyrnaid carnifex though that would be stupidly OP) and more suits per squad. We are supposedly having more HQ's which could be almost anything at this point. I have also seen the word tank hunter thrown around quite a bit, if that gets attached to the XV** we may not have a problem. We don't even have an idea of what our new bomber can do. There are plenty of places left in the new codex to make up for the new XV88s which all in all are still a dangerous proposition.

Whether it sounds bad or not, is very much down to personal interpretation.
For me it sounds intensely bad.

In fact, there aren’t “plenty of places left in the new codex to make up for the new XV88s.”. The only real AT Tau have are suits with missile pods, Hammerheads with railguns, and XV88s. Suits struggle with AV12+, and the Hammerhead is a single BS4 shot. That left XV88s as the only reliable way to deal with anything tougher than a Rhino or a Trukk or any DE vehicle. Now, XV88s will struggle with AV12+, and there’s no indication that Hammerheads are better shots or missile pods have become any stronger. The only wild card is the XV104, which will certainly cost more, and come with at best a single twin-linked railcannon (and Kirby can’t even confirm that much). So that’s more ppints for fewer shots, albeit on a sturdier platform.

I don’t think the sky is falling, and I’m certainly nit going to pack up my army. But XV88s have become less useful against a wide variety of targets, and since there are Allies, Tau flyers and the XV104, trading the old XV88s for new Skyfiring ones is a definite step down for the unit.

Agreed. Additionally, there will be units in the book that don't have models for us to speculate about from the white dwarf. The days to come should be a series of high-fives and hand-shakes of congratulations for Loyal tau players, because we are the ones that will play the codex even if it "sucks" or "gets nerfed" 😀

For the Greater Good

Anyone had problems stripping hullpoints with Tau in 6th? I didn't.
Anyone had slightly more issues with flyers? I wasn't really scared with Tau but is definetely was an minor issue.

Now the important stuff:
Did anyone Notice the Riptide could be able to take Drones? There are some in his pictures…. thats so bloody hillarious it has to be completely OP. Even if Drones cost 20 points now.
As far as the pictures tell, you could also be able to mount one mainweapon 3 Crisis-sized guns (one shoulder mounted, 2 wrist mounted)
Imagine the worst case: Riptide is T6 W4 2 and 3/5 and 2 shielddrones for the old 2×15 points. Enjoy.

I don't give a crap about minor tweaks and point increases to XV88s. I'll have a 2+/4++ based army with more range than the average AP2 weapon and Drones to shrug anything off thats still in range, while murdering things horribly. As well as Allies to solve my troop problem. So 2 Riptides, Iridium Commander 3 XV8s with Drones, 4-6 XV88s, a Hammerhead, a couple Firewarriors and 60 Orks/ 20 Grey Hunters for me.

You Mr Vetok got my hopes high. I take my hat off to you in advance.
This Codex will be completely playable with a decent possibility of incredible awesomeness.

Tau – they might suck in close combat, it's a shame you'll never get there.

Just my 2 cents ….Eat your Ions and have a nice day.

/edit: Remember Riptide Drones should have his Toughness value. And I also forgot to mention all the small Riptide guns look pretty damn twin linked to me.

Yup, yup. Somehow (just a hunch), I suspect a Riptide can take more than 2 drones. Say, 4.

So we have a 5 wound model, with 4 drones (expensive as hell, but who cares?). It's probably a character, so even if it can only allocate on 4+ (I suspect drone rules will have something special for that) with 5 wounds and T6, you don't really care, you just allocate to the drones whenever you can. So to really have something tht is very like a 9 wound MC.

It seems it can get standard suit systems including secondary weapons. I expect kybernetic systems… all of this is unconfirmed speculation.
Long story short 2 Drones only, no Charakter rules would be my guess.
5 wounds base would be nice, but 4 is already sufficient. I wouldn't buy more than 2 Drones anyway for anything besides your Warlord unit.

Its like with Tyranids…. funny indeed. You want that Trygon (=Riptide) with the big "shoot me" sign to keep your Tervigon/Hivetyrant (=XV8/XV88) save – if it does damage while doing so…. fair enough.

As mentioned before T6 W*6*(with Drones) 2+ 3/4/5++ is incredibly durable since you have no reason to get closer than 24" (no Rapid fire Plasma, no Melta, no Thunderhammers). Immunity to AP3 is huge. You couldn't imagine how unbelievable nasty Tyranids would be if every MC could have a 2+/5++ for ~60 Points. Tau get it for less – only for one model thats more than enough.

Its going to be around 170-250 points. Depending on weapons and upgrades. Which means it doesn't pay the full price for its defense. Its simply too cheap.

Estimated 150 Points for a Hammerhead with Railcannon should be a reasonable base to compare what a Riptide is worth in points.
As a MC this is about equivalent to T6 and a 3 /5 save and 5 wounds – same gun. The Riptide has 2 more twin linked small guns which are useful vs the same targets as the Main Gun and have decent rage, unlike the HHs Burstcannons so thats 20 points per weapon to calculate.
150 2×20=200
It has a 2 save and the range to stay away from most groundbased AP 1/2 stuff – 40 more points.
200 40=240
It Probably has a generator to "overcharge" weapons or shield and is a jetpack MC. lets say 40 more points.
240 40=280
It seems to have access to the armory including drones so lets take some stuff – another 50 points for 2 shielddrones and a Target Lock.
adds up to 330
Due to designing reasons and unability to upgrade everything individually as you wish it should be 10% cheaper than calculated. So 300 points sound okay to me. A price I would be willing to pay for this thing – remember it has the option to shoot twice a turn with its Main Weapon (or buff its 5 to 3 if you read the rumours). Both options apply only if it doesn't move – true, but that has already been calculated because 40 points for a 3 or "double tap" are really not expensive even with this minor drawback.

But – as the rumours go the base cost is 150-170 points – which is dirt cheap. With shielddrones, Railcannon and Multitracker it could be at about 230-250 which is also way to cheap.

Thats why I think it doesn't have to pay the full price for what its capable of.

I didn't consider any synergy yet. E.g. the possibility to get buffed by Markerlights or getting something like PE from an Etheral.

Your math is a bit iffy.

At current, a Hammerhead with a railgun and a disruption pod is 145. Two plasma rifles would be another 40 points, for 185, unless they're a twin-linked plasma rifle, which would be 30 points. We'll split the difference and call it 180. You yourself factored in a 3+/5++ when you made the transition, and going from a 3+ to a 2+ is only a 10 point upgrade at the moment, so 190. Access to the armory would be a given for a monat character/unit. The big question is the generator, but since it's a 'one of three' option, and you have to give up your movement, calling it more than about 30 points seems a stretch. So, 220. Which is on the higher end of the 170-250 range you quoted, but if you swap the railgun for an ion cannon you could drop 35 points based on current pricing, which brings you down to 185; presumably the starting burst cannon thing is even cheaper. Which means, yeah, you have something in the 170-250 point range you first mentioned without too much trouble, and all at pretty fair market price for the Tau codex.

You shouldn't, however, factor in things like a target lock or shield drones; they're unlikely to come standard with the model, and would be post-selection upgrades not reflected in the basic cost.

Its 155 for a usual HH. You forgot the secondary weapons (90+50+10+5=155).

no one gets 2+ armor saves for 10 points. Necrons are the cheapest with 15 points, Marines pay 20 – on T6 W4+ it should be a bit more expensive. A Hivetyrant pays 40 – so i took him for reference.

10 points for an MC 2+ is a kind of desperate attempt to prove a nonexistent point… next time you give me numbers like that I'm gonna have a hard time not calling you a troll.

Secondary weapons are twin linked. Just look at the kit.

Drones are already calculated for in the 250 points. Thats about the cost I imagine for Riptide with 2 drones a Targetlock or multitracker and an improved mainweapon.
Everything has already been calculated generously. There are some other factors he should be paying for, (possible synergy of T6 2+ with cheap shielddrones). But all I can do now is assume – every unclear ur unlikeley possibility wasn't calculated for.
Should the Riptide e.g. get W5, Drones for 15 points each and targetlock etc for 5 points each I would say 3 of them are a given choice for any Tau army in the future.

Anyway… without taking expecting the "maybe" stuff and only expecting the "highly likely" stuff it still came out about 50 points cheaper than it should be. Thats the message of my post. If you disagree stop inventing "reasonable numbers" and faking point costs by forgetting to buy mandatory stuff.

I will listen to your opinion as soon as you can bring a valid point though.

Except you're not buying a full Hammerhead, because it doesn't come with those two burst cannons. You can't charge it for weapons it doesn't have in the first place, then charge it again for the weapons it does have.

And I wouldn't disparage my numbers too heavily until you manage to lock down your own math. 150 plus 2×20 isn't 200, it's 190. And a twin-linked plasma rifle wouldn't be 2×20, it would be 20+(1/2×20), for a total of 30. That's how twinlinked weapons are priced in the Tau codex. So you're off by twenty full points from the hop. You're right about Iridium Armour, though, it is 20 points, not 10, but that means your 40 points is still pretty wildly inflated.

As far as inventing numbers? Let's set aside the bizarre 'Turn a full-cost Hammerhead into an MC then make it spend 40 points for 2+ armour" idea. The Nemesis Dreadknight, the best existing unit to compare against for something like the XV104, pays 130 points for T6 W4 2+/5++, being a psyker, two psychic powers, the Aegis, and ATSKNF. If you trade not being a psyker, losing those powers, losing ATSKNF, and undoubtedly a drop in WS, I, LD and A, getting the special engine and the jetpack move (which is going to be pretty meaningless for something that's hardly going to get much cover anyway) in return seems like a pretty fair deal. Another thirty points for a twin-linked plasma rifle is 160, plus the Hammerhead railgun is 50 (even though there's no solid proof the XV104 can even carry a railgun; rumours conflict heavily), so you're at 210. Thirty for two shield drones is 240, the target lock is 5, the multitracker is 5, that's 250 right there. Based on existing costs and calculations, and using the only other comparable unit as a baseline, what you consider wildly overinflated is, in fact, just about right for what it's rumoured this suit can do.

Twin linked Plasma and Missile pod are 20 each because I already calculated them as an upgrade for the 2 burstcannons. Which means I missed some points because 2 Burstcannons come for 10 together and not 10 each. Thanks – the riptide is another 10 points to cheap.

Nemesis Knight is a hillarious example.
Lets do this shall we? Assuming same Profile and fearless (MCs seem to be always fearless, the Dreadknight is too) – standard weapon should be about equal (lots of S5-6 shots). So We give the Riptide a Mainweapon upgrade to Ioncannon for free, since it is no Psyker and inferior in melee.
Railcannonupgrade 20 (assuming Ioncannon for about 20 points and Railcannon getting a little cheaper)
2 Drones 30
Jetpack 30 (dreadknight pays 75 for his "once a game 24" move" a little more than half of this should be fine? Marines pay this price for a Jumppack)
twin linked Plasma 30
twin linked Missile Pod 21
Power Generator 30 (assuming to use it as Stormshield (3++) only – its 30 points for a Marine IC so you should agree its reasonable for an MC with more wounds and higher T with the drawback of not using it if it moves for the same price)
291 calculated
-10% because lots of stuff is "built in" and so should be cheaper.

~260 I would take that – 3 times per army.

Loosing beeing a Psyker and the melee options doesn't hurt as you still will have 4 Attacks and can Smash Stuff to shredds… so maybe the Ioncannonupgrade isn't really worth the exchange but who knows at this point.

The Dreadknight is incredible underpriced in my opinion. And still results in a 10 points more expensive Riptide suit than anticipated.
All assuming prices for ICs or tiny batlesuits…. it should pay flat out WAAAY more points for some of his equipment but you can have your way if you really have to.

At the end of the day its still way to cheap.

And yes it can take a Railcannon
scroll up
2nd Picture from the top, right side. Its clearly not a Burstcannon, its also not the Ioncannon from the other picture. Seems like something "raily" at least to me…

It is, in fact, the ion weapon. It has the little 'fins' at the top and bottom of the barrel, the bisected rectangle side, the little 'vents', the underslung rod, the little box on top. It's the ion weapon. There's no evidence, at all, of the XV104 getting a railcannon.

fliers dont look so bad from the top. still gotta remove those silly bars between the wings tho. disappointing lack of variation between the fighter and the bomber
riptide looks pretty neat, but it doesnt look like it has enough dakka to be worth taking, only has missile pods, the big gun, and the regular crisis gun underneath
pathfinders look fine
farsight looks neato
not really that bothered about rules. theyll be shooty shoot shoot etc

Riptide seems to have another weapon hardpoint on the shield arm too, it's most visible in the first leaked picture. It's likely that the weapon options are all interchangeable; and if they're twin-linked then the Riptide has as much firepower as a typical Crisis squad PLUS a huge gun (might even be better BS). So for all intents and purposes, it's a whole Crisis unit AND a Hammerhead.

I still can't tell if those bars do connect to the wings or not, they might be a loading bad under the wings for the fighter, or it might be part of the plasma bomb thingy.

Either way, they look easy to clip off, not really needed for any structural integrity. Do Not Want. No one wants the struts….which makes you wonder who thought it was a good idea?

Am I the only one super stoked that the Riptide is rumored to be a jump MC??? If it's true you that can boost the inv save to 3+ giving you a 2+/3++ and the initiative doesn't suck (it might) you could very realistically win quite a few assaults easily. Granted Tau should focus on shooting, but a chance to punch back is always welcomed, and the thought of this thing stomping across the table is hilarious.

I would expect it to be a Jetpack Monstrous Creature rather than Jump Monstrous Creature. Still pretty quick, but a heck of a lot more useful to Tau.

RIght, and it gets some bonuses for not moving in the movement phase, right?

Soooo…stay still, overcharge your gun, get a 3++ or whatever, then move 2d6? Kinda neat cuz it gives you mobility, but rewards you for planning ahead, anticipating your opponents movements.

I wonder if the Ripetide is going to be a Monstrous Creature with a mutlitracker upgrade. Allowing it to shoot 3 weapons in a turn? It would make sense.

Assuming he has BS 4 that would give him the firepower of two BS 3 Fireknifes + a Hammerhead.
If he can "overcharge" to boost his main weapon system…. this would make him a true monster.
Even if you don't choose to buff his ++ save he should still be durable enough.

Looking for a Tau "Dragon"? Here it is.

Your assumption about a railcannon on the flyer is completely groundless. There's no evidence on the model of such a weapon, and no rumours about it having such a weapon. At best, the fighter has an ion weapon of some description, and the bomber has a presumably-renewable plasma bomb (since people have talked about it forming the energy blast, rather than dropping a pre-formed bomb).

Welp, assumptions often are groundless. I'll be groundless as much as I want.

Regardless, I do have a ground, here. Lots of previous rumours had word of a railgun option. New rumours speak of this uber Ion gun which seems nearly as powerful. (hence, "or something nearly as powerful")

If the best it's got is s6-7 (even 8) weaponry, that puts it in same category of the new DA flyers…i.e. the trash. At least I liked the look of the DA flyers.

Regardless, I'm about 70% confident that the flyer can get either a rail cannon or something Str 9+. If not, then great, one less model to buy.

I just wanted to point something out, regarding the XV88s. There are those who claim that their possession of Skyfire balances out their loss of weapon strength, and makes them a superior anti-flyer platform. In fact, the addition of Skyfire and the removal of those two points of strength perfectly cancel each other out, leaving the XV88 right where it was before. Previously, to damage a Stormraven (as an example), an XV88 needed 6s to hit (twin-linked) and then 3s to penetrate. Now, the XV88 needs 4s to hit (twin-linked), and 5s to penetrate. The overall probabilities of accomplishing a penetrating hit from start to finish haven't actually changed. And for this non-change, they've lost ground against all other vehicles in the game..

Against the stormraven perhaps but against AV10 or 11 flyers this is a benefit. 4s to hit 3s to Pen as opposed to 6s to hit and 2s to pen.

Uh, against an AV10 flyer the older XV88 would've needed a 6 to hit, and then autopenetrated, compared to now needing a 4 to hit and a 3 to penetrate; against an AV11 flyer it would've glanced on a 1 and penetrated on a two, as opposed to glancing on a 3 and penetrating on a 4.

You really can't be bothered with mathhammer to prove you wrong can you? ^^

shooting Fliers on full BS with S8 is already superior to S10 with BS 1. The lower the AV the better the S8 Skyfire guns.

It doesn't matter how easy you penetrate on 3s instead of 5s if you simply don't even score half as much hits.

How dare you bring logic into this!

Joking aside, I think once the codex finally drops many of the current Tau players will be able to see the forest for the trees. Although, some of them are pretty myopic, so I guess they can't all be saved.

So lets state some facts shall we.
We have Hullpoints now. So we don't need to rely on Railguns to kill AV12 and 13 anymore. We have Flyers now, which reduce the efficiency of BS3-4 units shooting by roughly 66-75%

so lets look at those S 10 AP 1 guns we currently have to use for that.

On average 3 old XV88s hit exactly 1 out of six shots. Which is an average of 0,667 Penetrations and 0,167 glancing shots (I'm not talking about probability here – its average damage done).

On the other side the AA S8 AP 1 new XV88s hit an average of 2,25 shots resulting in 0,75 Penetrations and 0,375 Glancing shots, for approximately 15 points upgrade cost per model (to 85 points), but get ASS for free as the rumors say.

both vs AV 12 ofc

Add the Option of getting BS 4 (unit upgrade or markerlights), think about AV 10 and 11 Flyers and the new ones suddenly shine.
Against any kind of Flyer 50% of your penetrations see a dead Flyer. so you can expect 3 dead AV 12 Flyers per game (2 if they Jink) from a single unit of new XV88s in turn 2-6. Since there exist hullpoints and overkill this is pretty random. sometimes you kill just one sometimes 4 or 5, but this is 40k… thats how its supposed to be.

Anyone having a problem with Cron Air? Here is your answer. Crons are bad at killing 72'' guys with multiple wounds and 2+ armor. If every Scyte you shoot jinks you still kill an average of 3 in five turns.

They are as good as ever against T4 (Autokill) and T6 MCs. They trade anti heavy tank for arguably beeing the best ground based AA unit in the game.
I barely ever see a Landraider, but never see IG without Vendettas ot Crons without Scytes.

Mech got airborne this edition, if you play Tau I would recommend to welcome an opportunity to adapt.

Thank you, teslarod, for mathhammering my point for me. So yes, in exchange for being made worse against every non-flyer vehicle and losing ID on Marine and Ork bikers, these new XV88s, which apparently cost more and lose Overwatch, manage… a whopping .08 more penetrating hits in a round of shooting. Why, you only need to field twelve more XV88s to add up to a whole extra dead AV12 flyer with that sort of improvement!

Which is to say, XV88s are functionally just as good an anti-air unit as they were before this change was instituted. If they are "the best ground based AA unit in the game" now, they were the best before. People are being blinded by their possession of Skyfire, and failing to see that it's been balanced out by the reduction in their weapon's strength.

Yes, some mech got airborne. But there are still plenty of AV13 vehicles out there, lots of Leman Russes and Predators, Catacomb Command Barges and Doomsday Arks. And S8 will only penetrate those one shot out of six now, compared with a far more reliable one in two. And there are still Battlewagons and Land Raiders and Monoliths that need to be dealt with, by an army without easy access to melta.

Don't forget the glancing shots. It adds up to 0,533 pens and 2 glancing shots in 6 turns so its roughly one more dead flyer per game (or at least a half one considering jink). Thats an improvement of estimated 20-30% against the most problematic foe in the game.
They don't suck at what they did either they just get adapted to 6th edition…. twin linked S10 AP1 on 70 points models is completely hillarious. Ask a Kyborg. If you want them how they are you should pay 100 points per model thats what this gun is worth in 6th.

We get them for less than 100 points but get a change in efficency for that. Can't really complain about it because its freakin anti air and I really really wanted them for that.

BS 1 gambling at flyers to strip the last hullpoint sucked anyway. I like to roll more dices and rely on balanced results instead of extremes. Everything on 4s (partly rerollable) sounds better to me than hit on 6es – reroll – pen on 3s – kill on 4s (to few hits to kill reliably via Hullpoints is a bad thing).
Thats the point where probability finally nails the coffin for god old S 10 Railguns without skyfire.

Taking a their results over 6 turns is meaningless, since plenty of games will give you maybe 4 turns with a flyer on the board as a target, and if your XV88s last seven turns at their full strength you're clearly clubbing a baby seal anyway, and don't need the help. Plus, against any flyer with a lascannon, which is to say, most of the good ones, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose at least one XV88 before they get a chance to fire.

As for cost, I'll give you that the gun is worth what the Hammerhead pays for it, 50 points (and apparently even the Hammerhead's railcannon is getting a price drop, so…). So, for the other 20 points, you were getting a 25 point crisis suit with 2+ instead of JSJ and Relentless. That's pretty reasonable. And given that there are no lascannons, no lances, and very few useful melta platforms in the Tau codex, none of which has changed, those expensive railguns were actually quite reasonable within the wider scope of the book. Yes, individually they're quite good, but for the same price as two of them a Marine player could have a Predator with three lascannons, one of them twin-linked and all firing at BS4, or for a little more than the price of three a Guard player could have six scoring lascannon teams. Tau had to get quality, because they didn't get quantity.

Now, it seems, they won't really get either.

I really don't see your problem. Its a ~20-70% increase in efficiency it doesn't matter at all if you fire 1 or 5 turns (depending on flyer AV). Broadsides pay 15 point (or something like that) for a skyfireupgrade. thats the same a Chaos Marine pays for his crappy S 7 AP 4 Missile launcher – so its cheap. Yes they dont wreck Landraiders anymore. They still got "cheaper" – for what they can do they should cost more points 120 points for a S 10 Ap1 Broadside with skyfire would be reasonable and so are 85 points for a S8 AP 1 guy.
You save points by using Broadsides as "cheap" anti air and can invest the remaining points in stuff to wreck Landraiders and Chimeras.
Tau have mass shooting, so they will strip hullpoints even without Skyfire if necessary. GKs have Psyflemen as "good" AA unit…. a single Broadside still does better.

Its not like we will have a Codex that has to rely on a few overpowered units to compensate for weak troops and other drawbacks anymore.

btw a vendetta kills a single shielddrone per turn… an average of 2,25 hits, 1,92 wounds 0,96 failed invulnerable saves :>

I can't imagine where you're getting this idea that a railgun-toting XV88 should be over a hundred points. A S9 AP2 Icarus with both Skyfire and Interceptor is 35 points, a 4-shot twinlinked S7 Quad gun with Skyfire and Interceptor is 50, and the Doomsday Ark's S9 AP1 Large Blast weapon is a 60 point upgrade on a Ghost Ark chassis. The full-up version of the railgun on the Hammerhead, with the submunition, is only 50 points. Given that the XV88 is a significantly less sturdy platform, being neither T7 nor AV13, and having no invulnerable save of any kind, its current pricing of 70 points plus at least one mandatory upgrade is quite reasonable. If you want to tack Skyfire on there, you could maybe add on another fifteen, twenty points which, hey, puts it right where the current, nerfed version is.

Think of it like this. An XV88 is an XV8 (25), with Iridium Armour (10), that trades its Jet Pack and Relentless for 2+, and carries a slightly different Icarus (35, plus twin-linked, minus Interceptor). That's 80 points, right there, for a model with the exact same BS, protection and nearly the same weapon. So tell me again how 85 points for that same model, with a weaker gun, is a totally reasonable cost that is in no way something a reasonable person could be expected to grumble about?

"btw a vendetta kills a single shielddrone per turn… an average of 2,25 hits, 1,92 wounds 0,96 failed invulnerable saves :> "

Which is to say, it's forced a test on LD8, something that you're not unlikely to fail.

I dont think they have lost Overwatch. In the Battle Report the Broadsides definitely fire overwatch shots on one of the turns

First…. expext something to happen for morale issues. Etheral LD 10 bubble, shielddrones not counting for casuality tests… something like that.
Second – if not don't worry 1 out of 5 doesn't force a LD test.
Third – with slow and purposeful you could just run away rally and shoot again, if you don't… snapfire on 72" is better than nothing.

Icarus is not a Broadside. They are once per army, have to be fired by another Model you have to pay points for and come with an Aegis which you also have to pay – so are cheaper than they should be because they have drawbacks. They are way to different from each other to compare.
besides that Icarus Gun is quite similar to S8 AP1 railguns. with same BS Railgun hits better 1S and 1 point of AP cancel each other pretty much out. Interceptor is missing, but hey you hit better and can move if you have to.
As a matter of Math S8 Railguns are at least as good as an Icarus so should be worth at least the same 35 points? Would that mean new Broadsides are too cheap if they get relentless for free?

Take a Havoc with Flakk Missile upgrade instead. Its a ground unit with AA 13 points +10 +15. minimum Squad cost is 75+40+60=175… would take two Broadsides instead any day a week.

Wait…so the entire basis for your argument is "If we look at other codexes, the s10 railgun is too cheap".

Sorry, I thought people realised that that argument doesn't work, because the Tau Codex isn't the Chaos Codex, or hte Grey Knight Codex.

Yep its too cheap. It was necessary in 5th edition and all of us played them for years so we don't think too hard about it. But now when it isn't necessary to kill stuff by exloding it anymore it should get nerfed or more expensive.
I want a balanced codex on IG and GK level. No need for something even better. S10 skyfire in groups of 3 for <100 points per gun would simply break the game.

You know what? I agree. I also want a balanced codex on IG and GK level.

So, when do you think I can expect to be able to put my scoring lascannon teams in my transport they can fire out of, backed up by squadrons of tanks armed with 72" S8 AP3 Large Blast weapons and the most points-efficient flyer in the entire game?

A burst cannon on a flyer? Ugg I was really hopping that was not the case. The issue I have with bust cannons on a flyer is that it will not do anything to another flyer so if the purpose of the flyer is to take out other flyers it will be worthless. Then again there are a lot of rumors floating around showing a ton of skyfire so maybe it wont be needed for that role.

Maybe it is suppose to be a anti infantry flyer. If that is the case a single burst cannon is not really going to put much fear in the enemy. Give that flyer 3 burst cannons and you can kill a single marine at BS3. I don't know any army that is afraid of a single burst cannon. Maybe this is going to be a cheap flyer or have more guns… I am not sure but I hope for a real flyer and not a flyer just for the sake of having a flyer.

Maybe we'll be lucky, and it'll be the S6 AP4 Hvy 6 'long-barreled burst cannon' FW stuck on its flyers. But yes, if it's the same S5 AP5 Assault 3 burst cannon we all know and don't care about on our Devilfish, that will be sadly underwhelming.

If your talking about the flyer on the right it also has an ion weapon at the back. See the balck circle? thats the top of the 4 barrelled Ion weapon

Just talking about the presence of burst cannons, period. The weapon is a joke as far as vehicle armaments go. Even the Ork big shoota has twice the range, and for five points it can upgrade to a rokkit launcher that's a Krak missile with 6" more range than the burst cannon. The only exception is the Rhino, which is just a platform for guys with meltaguns and a bunker for missile launchers anywyay.

The Razorshark can be armed with a Burst Cannon or Misslile Pod. At the rear it has a quad Ion Cannon. . It also can does have/can have two seeker missiles

It looks like the missile pods are twin-linked, as well (or there are two of them, but standard practice is "two weapons = twin-linked), so at least the shots should be fairly reliable.

And you know this how! And what if the cannon n the flyer is different then the one on the suits? No shots of the underside of the flyer have been shown and what weapons it carries beside the one in the nose. Relax and wait and read the codex thorughly.

So excited about the riptide, just a thought, but wouldn’t it be logical for it to have skyfire, I mean, it’s already as high up as the flyers anyway

Tau have a neglible presence in the warp. It's mentioned briefly in their codex. It's also why they have inferior interstellar travel and communication compared to the Imperium, with their Navigators and Astropaths.

well, let's see.. the flyers look like a version of WW2 bombers, which is pretty cool

Riptide looks like it's sporting a six-barreled burst cannon with some dual plasma underslung goodness… and it might just be fully articulated, which is super cool.

the new farsight that we saw years ago, finally available for us to buy, also super cool

and the new broadside.. I don't care what the rules are, it just looks HELLA cool.

And I'm almost willing to bet that the firewarriors got some ion gun love, which is now just icing on a now sub-zero cake.

So overall, I think the entire range, dex aswell will be just orgasmic.

Any word on if there is an option or Character to move Suits into a Troops slot?

Curious as this was mooted in previous rumours.

Also because i'm tempted to put in a preorder for a bunch of suits and riptides and would love to be able to use them 🙂

Would the riptide actually be ok in assault since it is ap2? And will assumingly have high strength

we can only hope…
You never know… Although I'm guessing it only has 1 attack. I'll still be emptying my wallet though…

The present suits have 2 A, and the commanders either 3 or 4 depending, so the XV104 will probably have three or four. And yes, as an MC, it will probably be able to squash what it hits in close combat. But it's not unlikely that it would be WS3 and I3, so it's hardly going to be clearing out the place on its own, hitting only ahead of power fists and failing to connect as often as not.

It'll probably work well enough, if slowly, against a non-dedicated CC unit, like some Tacticals without a Fist-Sarge or a small swarm of Termagants. But that means it's wasting time it could be shooting, and you have to wonder how a long-ranged unit ended up in combat with a non-CC unit in the first place.

From the last leaked picture if you look on the bottom left it shows 2 options for the back, jetpack must be an option. The other picture is just a plated back

If you're referring to the last image in the pictures up above, that's not two different backs; it's the back on the left, and the front on the right. You can see the front of the 'head', and the big Tau symbol in the centre of the chest.

*Facepalm* I am actually kicking myself right now.
I’m the picture the burst weapon us that a twin linked plasma?