New Eldar Tricks and Tips

250px-Dragon_Warrior_vs._Space_MarineWhenever a new 'dex comes out, I try not to jump immediately into a mode where I start judging the value of units. More often than not, some of the strongest units in a 'dex are initially panned, or simply looked over. I've written before about winning armies, and how things on the table are often different from what we see as excellent in theory. The power gradient that's in our mind is usually a bit different than what's winning games on the table.

I've been talking with a lot of my of my Eldar-playing friends, (special shout out to Way of the Eldar) and played a few games against the new 'dex, and I feel like I'm ready to give some general advice on how to handle the new 'dex.

First off, your new Eldar strategy, which I'm going to coin as:

The Eldar Dance of Death

Battle focus is an exceptional ability, and Eldar short-range anti-infantry shooting is phenomenal. In addition, Eldar anti-tank and support fire has a very long range, and tends to be mounted on extremely mobile platforms.

What that means is that you really want to have your close range units (think anything that has shuriken weaponry and and a move after the shot) to be dancing juuuuuuuust at the edge of the enemy's range. Get in, shoot your shots, and run away. Most units don't like to test an assault at a unit that started the turn ~15”+ away from them, especially if there is any intervening difficult terrain.

The very fast speed of Eldar infantry (with battle focus) means that you can pull this off while you position yourself on the battlefield- taking objectives, shifting fronts, etc. Eldar infantry are so fast with battle focus that they're often nearly as quick as many other races infantry units that are riding in transports. Use that to your advantage.

The other thing to keep in mind is that you will lose models, and that is absolutely OK. People give Guardians a lot of flack because they die so easily, but the simple fact of the matter is that point-for-point Guardians win an exchange of fire with any unit in the game. A barrage of fire from a guardian squad is about as bad for a unit as being charged by an equivalent points cost in Genestealers. And the enemy will return fire, and you'll lose some. That's OK. That's pretty much the whole Eldar story, isn't it?

Your vehicles are also very powerful. Carrying your cover save with you, as Eldar vehicles do, is extremely good. They're also so fast that they should never really be caught out in an open fire nexus that much, and they should really never be getting hit by melee attacks. (Unless you're using them as a wall to block access to an area.) They're also so long ranged (36”+) that they really don't need to be far up the field to be contributing.

You can use the pressure of powerful short-ranged shooting and reliable long-range support firepower to really put pressure on the enemy. If you're playing right, you'll be in their face, but untouchable, always dancing just out of range of melee annihilation, while your vehicles blow holes in their support. Think of it as a series of hit-and-run attacks that are supported by unending artillery fire.

You get the picture. Let's look at some units. The point of this little run through will not be to give a very in-depth analysis to each and every unit, but rather to give a broad overview of what is most tactically useful.

The Many HQ's


Eldar have a crowd in every slot- that's what you get for being in the game line so long. HQ is no exception to this, as Eldar have 13 HQ choices, not counting the Warlock Council (who is really un-slotted.) Most of them are pretty bad, but there's a few fun options in there.

Eldrad is the first one most people will look at, and he's… OK. Not phenomenal, as he costs basically 2 standard Farseers, without an appreciable increase in power. His ability to regain Warp Charge isn't super useful, as you can't cast the same power twice, so you'll run out of casting anyway. I'd probably take 2 Farseers over him in almost every case.

Prince Yriel, Asurmen, Jain Zar, Fuegan, Baharroth and Maugan Ra are all best left on the shelf. They're not really doing much that isn't covered better elsewhere. (This is what happens when you have a lot of dudes trying to do basically the same stuff- One of them is going to do it best.)

I will make a fun theory note, though. You could theoretically cycle Fuegan being wounded and then Renew him back up, all the way to S10 A10. It would never happen, but it's funny to think about.

Karandras is the standout Pheonix lord. He's one of the pre-eminent challengers in the game, able to take down just about anything with his 5 I7 S8 AP2 attacks. (With a likely re-roll to wound.) In addition, he gives his units Shrouded, which means he can hang with his Scorpion buddies and they can cover each other with Stealth as well. He also comes stock with what is probably the best Eldar warlord trait. Still, it can be hard to pick him over a couple of Farseers, and having both makes your HQ slot very heavy.  (ONE HUGE CAVEAT: The IPad version lists him as having Stealth, NOT Shrouded. If that's true, he's a LOT worse and I'd probably leave him behind.)

Illic Nightspear is also very interesting. While he's only kind of OK, he does have some interesting options. Pathfinders are expensive at 25 points per guy, but you can get 6 of them for the cost of a Vindicare at a much higher effect. More and more units in 40k rely on specific models to make them powerful, putting out that many precision shots is very nice indeed. And those pathfinders are difficult to take down, as they also pack stealth and shrouded. You could theoretically make an army including him and a bunch of other pinning units and force a ton of pinning checks. If you have a Hemlock to hang around, you can really get some units to go to ground. (You are sniping the Sergent, no?)

I'm really not sure on the Avatar. Maybe he's good?

The Autarch is, for the most part, pretty bad. His reserves rule don't help an army that doesn't generally like to start of the board, and most of his gear makes him a very expensive weapons guy to attach to a squad. However, there's one build I like with him. I call it the “Challenger” Solitaire. Take the Mantle of the Laughing God, a Jetbike, a Laser Lance, and a Banshee mask. It's hard to shoot you to death, you can run around on your own, and go hit-and-run anything vulnerable. Unless you hit a hard combat HQ (so… don't. You're fast.) you should be able to take anything down in a challenge, and just rip up smaller squads, all while you're nowhere near the rest of your army. Eldar really do love a melee harass, and someone who can tackle weakened squads. I'm going to throw in comments here as well as I really am loving this combination so far; I'm not sure if I'll continue with him long-term as he does have a horrific weakness to anything which ignores cover but he's only 135 pts and will ruin anything that doesn't have a 2+ save.

The Farseer is good, and the Spiritseer is OK. Eldar don't have a ton of units that really need the bunch of blessings that the Spiritseer provides, and the Farseer actually provides a lot of nice, very reliable abilities in a cheap package. You can always just choose to have Prescience and Guide, with rolls on both tables to try for something great. (Doom and Fortune both being your best options.) Really, the Farseer is the default HQ for most Eldar armies. Some may want to build the all-wraith army that the Spiritseer gives access to, but I just don't see how it would work. It's slow, clunky, vulnerable to a ton of things, and don't synergize with much of anything in the rest of the army.

Warlocks are pretty good, and hand out super-nice shrouding (or what can be even more clutch: take it away) at worst. You should stick them in a bunch of squads. Remember that shrouding gives your bog-standard Jetbike squads a 3+ all the time cover save.


Troops

An interesting bag, with some good and some bad.

Guardian Jetbikes are excellent. They're amazingly fast, tough as a marine, and they put out very respectable anti-infantry firepower. Six squads of 9 bikes with heavy weapons would not be overkill. Really, you should probably always bring a unit or two of them into every battle- they're just too useful due to their speed.

However, they're not the only decent choice. Guardians, as I alluded to in the introduction, are actually quite good. Their firepower literally doubled in effectiveness against MEQ units, and a natural BS of 4 means that they are actually OK with their heavy weapons. Those weapons, by the way, also are wound-takers themselves now. You can potentially stick one or two in front to soak firepower with their 3+ saves if you need to. They all also universally have much longer range than the Guardians, which extends their casualty possibilities. While you should expect to lose a lot in return, as long as you're not being charged and wiped, you should often be able to make your points back in your slaughter-barrage. I like the Brightlance with them, though the Scatter Laser is the one to pick if you already have good antitank in your list (though please note it does NOT twin-link the whole unit, as many suggest).

Dire avengers are overpriced Guardians, in my opinion. They're uncomfortably between the cost-effectiveness of Guardians and the overall awesomeness of Jetbikes, which leaves them a bit stranded. Know what your army does and pick one or the other.

Rangers are solid. Precision shots are always welcome, and their extreme range and decent BS means they have a place in a lot of armies. A couple small squads to sit back, hold objectives, and plink at MCs and VIPs is not bad at all.

Storm Guardians are dumb. You can't melee things to death with guardians, even if you have an extra attack. Just don't. They do have special weapons though…

The Wave Serpent
This gets its own section, because there's a lot of misconception about it.

You need to change your thinking about the Wave Serpent. The easiest, quickest explanation of the new serpent is that is has changed from a transport with guns, to a main battle tank that happens to be able to ferry people.

First off, the Serpent Shield should really be called the Serpent-Gun-That-Is-Sometimes-a-Shield. It's an AMAZING weapon. Not only does it cause hits at long range at good strength, but it causes pinning hits (Illic Nightspear army clears it's throat) and most importantly it ignores cover. Ignores cover is an amazing ability this edition, (really every addition) but it means that the Wave Serpent threatens light vehicles like nothing else in the game. A Scatter Laser will even let you re-roll those Serpent Shield misses and add even more firepower, which allows the Wave Serpent threaten everything from AV10-12 tanks to high save infantry. It's REALLY powerful and I would even consider taking one for a squad that would never use it, or couldn't even fit. Great tank.

Elites

One day GW will realize what Blizzard did a long time ago: if you have multiple units doing the same thing, one will be the best, and that's the only one that will matter. Either cut the others, or change their role.

In our case, it's the Eldar elite melee unit that we're looking at. Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, and Harlequins are all up for the exact same role of punching things to death.

I'll save us all some time. Scorpions are the best, because they survive the best, and because all 3 squads have similar output on anything you'd want to melee. If you want a melee unit, take Scorpions. Bam.

Fire dragons deserve a mention here. While they're still an OK unit, the face that Eldar have a lot of platforms that can take reasonable Bright Lances, as well as their price increase, renders them a little less impressive. I wouldn't take them unless the list you use is specifically having trouble with high-AV tanks.

Not sure on the Wraith units yet. In theory you could do some decent hop outta transports kind of stuff, but I'm not really sold on the effectiveness of that. I REALLY don't like them as troops, they're slow, have terrible range, and even at T6 aren't that difficult to remove.

Fast Attack

Swooping Hawks seem like they might be a good harassment unit, but you already have a lot of hit-and-run infantry harassment in whatever troops you bring, so I don't really like them all that much, still.

Warp Spiders are a bit better, as they can cause a lot of wounds, and obliterate tanks. Still, 19 points each is expensive, unless your list needs them, it's probably best to leave them at home. (Needs the ability to nuke lightish tanks and further support your hit-and-run attacks, that is.)

Shining Spears I'm not sure about. My initial reaction would be to fill out your scoring Jetbike squadrons first, but there may actually be a place for them. Eldar REALLY like at least one unit in the army that can do a decent job in melee, and the speed of the Spears would be a huge asset in that role. Though it is a shame they can't have a Warlock, the would really love Shrouded.

The Crimson Hunter is a little overcosted, I think, as you can actually bring most aircraft down through weight of fire. It's also so fragile that to make use of it you'll probably have to go second, which is less than ideal for an army that likes it's Wave Serpent alphasplosion.

Vypers are pretty bad. I'd skip them. You can pretty much always find something that will do the same job better than they will.

The Hemlock is OK, but I wouldn't take it unless you're pretty sure you want to force a lot of pinning. The Mindshock pod is great. Still, expensive, and expect it to get shot down in short order.

Heavy Support

Dark Reapers are really, really expensive, and only kind of good. One thing to think about, however, is attaching an allied Tau commander with a Puretide Chip, Multispectral Scanner Command and Control Node. That's some scary shooting right there. But unless you're doing something like that, I'd advise against them.

The Support Battery is interesting, the D-cannons look OK, but you really don't generally need help killing heavy tanks, and small blasts are of limited use against most infantry. It could potentially be a decent character sniper with its indirect fire.

The Fire Prism is solid. No more stupid rule where you have to give up shooting with one to be decent with the other. It's a nice all-rounder, but when you're playtesting it's worth keeping an eye on it to see if you should swap it out for something more specialized.

The Night Spinner is quite good. The Doomweaver is very powerful against grouped tanks and many infantry (remember, it can effectively rend and ignore cover when hitting infantry with its barrage). It's torrent fire mode is especially impressive, it's actually good enough that I would consider the Crystal Targeting Matrix with this thing.

The Falcon is sort of meh. Even with the Pulse Laser it's generally doing less damage than a Wave Serpent, and it doesn't have the shield option! I just don't see where it fits in.

War Walkers are very cool. Since they have Battle Focus and Scouts, it's very easy to run them up a flank while maintaining constant fire. My preferred loadout would be Scatter Laser/Brightlance, which lets you threaten just about anything in the game. I'd probably run a squadron of 3 outfitted like this in any build, as they're fast and effective against all targets. Eldar, more than any other race, really benefit from encircling the enemy, as the large amount of mid-strength shooting they bring benefits greatly from side shots.

I don't rate the Wraithlord very highly. It's weapons are very expensive, and much like a Dreadnought it is unlikely to see itself safely to combat. Honestly, its probably better to just take a Wraithkight, which is effectively two bolted together (double cost, double wounds) but with good stock guns for free.

Finally, the big boy: the Wraithknight. First, why is it called that? Why is it not the Wraithlord, and the old Wraithlord is renamed the Wraithknight? Would that not make the progression make more sense? (Guard<Knight<Lord<Kirby?) Anyway…

I didn't rate the Wraithknight very highly at first. (And before you get excited, I still kind of don't.) He has the option to take four weapons, but can only ever fire two. His sword is a huge waste of points, and his stock guns are cool and powerful but largely unneeded in a properly built army. If I were to build one, I'd swap for the Suncannon (you WANT that invulnerable save) and the Scatter Laser (just one) to twin-link it. That's pretty threatening to most infantry.

The biggest thing that makes me think the Wriathknight is perhaps worthwhile, however, sounds absurd on it's face: you can Deep Strike it. Yup, it's a Jump unit, so it can Deep Strike. While the thing is hardly invulnerable, deep striking a monster with T8, W6 and a 3+/5++ could potentially be very strong. You could use that to effectively pen the enemy, while you carry out your other operations, as the thing would be an imminent threat. And no, don't put the fracking thing right next to the enemy, it's jump infantry, it's fast and can afford to drop somewhere safe.

The Builds

I'm sure there will be a lot of builds to come, but there's a few which I think are, at the moment, very powerful. I'll list a few, to hopefully help you get started:

1.) Siam-Hann: Bikes bikes bikes. Load up on a ton of Jetbike Squads, and lots of long range firepower. With such a fast front to your army, you can afford to take many of the more immobile heavy support units. This is the list I would use Karandras in, I think the constant annoying harassment from the bikes would be a perfect cover for he and his unit to sneak up unmolested.

2.) Tsunami: Maximize the Wave Serpent carnage. Take big squads of Gaurdians who don't even bother to get inside, support with units that can crack heavier armor, and get up the field as fast as you can. Double Farseer is not a bad call, as Guardian squads really appreciate Guide and Prescience. Just be very careful of melee units, you want something to countercharge, and this list really benefits from a sniper or two to take out characters.

3.) Godzilla: Bring a Wraithknight and all the heavy firepower you can muster. Pen in the opponent and just keep smashing.

4.) Pinning Storm: Bring Illic, two units of pathfinders (6-7 in a squad is fine). Bring three Night Weavers, bring 3 Wave Serpents. Force unending Pinning checks after you snipe out the sergeants. For extra fun, bring a Hemlock.

And, of course, as always, there's the:

5.) Balanced Approach: Make use of those good troop options! 1-2 Squads of Rangers, 2-3 of Guardians with Serpents, and 2-3 of Jetbikes. Have 6 total. Test out melee units until you find one that can keep melee enemies off your back. Bring a Squadron of War Walkers, a Fire Prism, and a Night Spinner. Don't be afraid to try things, and remember that army synergy trumps raw power every time.

 —

Anyway, that's my initial take on it. One more shout out to Way of the Eldar. He's a smart guy who help me reach a lot of these conclusions, or outright told me them. And of course make use of the 3++ forums – we all love them; so should you. So, what do you guys think of the new 'dex?

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201 Responses to “New Eldar Tricks and Tips”

  1. Kirby says:

    I'll throw in my comments quickly as well – Serpents are great. AV12 with 4++ is a solid platform even in 5th and have 4x S6 TL shots and 2-7 S7 ignores cover TL shots for 130 pts (+10 pts for 3x S6 TL shots) is great. I'm not there on Guardians yet – that extra 6" of range for Avengers is really what gets me despite their cost.

    Jetbikes though are yum and Rangers are as ever, a solid backfield choice.

    Psychic powers I'm finding 2-3 Warlocks and 1-2 Seers give a great coverage of ability however, watch how much gets sunk into these compared to the rest of your forces (particularly Seers). 2x Guide/Prescience is great, unless most of your army is running twin-linked already and there are several dodgy rolls on all the tables. I am however loving the Solitaire Autarch atm (mostly because I converted the model years ago and want to keep using it) as a really cheap harassment piece though I find I'm missing the reliability of the second seer to get at least one Fortune/Doom reliably.

    Not settled on the Fast Attack yet – all three Aspects there are greatly improved but as Biscuit said, does your army already do the job?

    Night Spinners/Prisms/Vaul's are also giving some nice HSupport options though losing the ever loved Falcon as a solid platform makes my pretty Falcons sad *turret swap* oh they happy again!

    I'm finding the main thing one needs to ally in so far is AA though the amount of twin-linked Eldar can get, you can attrition some flyers around. I'll do a post soon on Eldau/Taudar simply because the Battle Brother combinations there are pretty epic.

    For now, my response to the codex is similar to all of those bar the Tau of 6th. A good solid non-plussed. It doesn't make me excited but I'm not slamming my balls in a drawer. The only books of 5th that made me do this? SoB (yes even Tyranids at their first showing were a sturdy army – look at the releases after them). 1/9 for 5th, 4/5 for 6th. *sad face* (and again, they aren't BAD, they just aren't what we got used to in 5th – solid all-round books).

    • kristoffer says:

      just a quick question. CAN you build a seriously competitive eldar list with the new codex. Cause I feel like you can. Is everything in the codex good? No. But I feel like you can be competitive with a foot list or serpent based mech list, especially if you ally tau for AA. Reapers should've been dedicated AA or warwalker missle launchers should be A LOT cheaper. But the fact is you CAN build a competitive list.

      If you're looking for everything in the codex to be superbalanced and usable in a competitive list…well as biscuit said the codex has been around for a while and has a lot of holdover units. If eldar had an assault transport, or the avatar had a 3+ invul, or reapers had split fire so the exarch was worth it….all these things would be TOO strong.

      Im happy with the codex because I can build a take all comers list that will work as long as my play is good. And im happy with the codex because all the eldar fluff units are still there, a little improved even if not good, for when I want to just play with my friends and put down a dazzling array of aspect colors and enjoy my game.

    • Mystic says:

      So wait, I'm confused. Was there a FAQ recently that I missed that allows you to choose from multiple disciplines? I thought that once you chose a discipline, you had to roll all of your powers from that discipline.

      • kristoffer says:

        Pretty sure thats fantasy but I could be wrong there mystic

        • Mystic says:

          Yeah that's how it works in fantasy. But in both this article and the last article, both mention that a farseer can get both Guide and Presience which are two different psychic disciplines.

      • JRBunn02 says:

        All psychic rolls are done one-at-a-time. Pick a Discipline, roll a die, decide to Primaris. It brings a lot of utility to higher Mastery Level characters with multiple Discipline options. Didn't roll Fortune/Doom? Take Guide then switch to Divination, etc.

        • Mystic says:

          hrm, you're right. I could have sworn there was an issue way back when when the White Dwarf guys were doing it like that and rules RAW said you had to choose all your powers from a single discipline. I've been playing it that way since then >.> Good to know you can choose from multiple.

          • Suijin says:

            Are you thinking of the codex vs BRB choice as you need to pick all from the codex or all from the BRB for that model.

          • artemi7 says:

            The is a diffrence between psychic POWERS and psychich DISCIPLINES. You can choose between powers you book has, or disciplines. If you choose disciplines, you may choose from any random chart avaible to that pycher, which is a mixof BRB disciplines and any codex options they might have.

            Our example has Sarah the female gamer pulling from Divination and Telepathy at the bottom of pg 142 (small BRB).

      • abusepuppy says:

        You have always been able to pull from multiple psychic disciplines. Powers are generated one at a time, and at any time you can choose to switch to a different discipline.

  2. azatoth says:

    I believe the Autarchs help to make sure your flyier arrive after the ones of your opponent can be usefull and should not be overlooked easily.

  3. derreavatar says:

    Great work kirby. You have some serious Divination powers!!!

  4. JFunkd says:

    I'm digging on scorpions infiltrating serpents.

  5. Hammerdal says:

    Unfortunately Karandras doesn't have Shrouded (but he does have Night Vision for his 12" guns). But the Spiritseer can cast Shrouded and another random buff or debuff for a third of the cost (although he can't Infiltrate with Spiders).

    • sirbiscuit says:

      Source on that? Right now it's just different between the two editions, but there isn't an official FAQ yet that I can see?

      • Hammerdal says:

        Oh, the book. The book lists stealth, and you say the iPad lists Stealth, so where the heck did Shrouded come from?

        • sirbiscuit says:

          Woah, weird, the couple I saw had him listed with Shrouded. WTH?

          • Alastores says:

            Think mine says Shrouded. Can't check, though. I lent it to my flatmate and he's gone out.

          • Simon says:

            Have an English Eldar Codex in front of me, can confirm it's only Stealth. Sad face!

          • SomeCallMeTim says:

            My hardcover book says stealth as well, both in bestiary and army list.

          • dRewsus says:

            Most people seem to have this stuck in their head because the German translator said "Shrouded" when he described Karandras during the leak on 4chan the night before release. He was simply mistaken, but who came blame him. I watched him do it all and he was pretty fast basically transcribing an entire new book to a different language from like midnight to 4am.

          • sirbiscuit says:

            Oh my god, I bet that's it. Thanks, I though I was going insane.

          • Threadmiser says:

            Oh you are, but not from codex stress; it's the shrooms that're getting you man.

  6. fran says:

    I totally disagree with almost everything you said, funny though, I read your blog all the time and agree on most parts. We probably have different meta and haven't used all units though.

    First, fire prisms are monsters now, better than hammerhead against AV14, and much more verisatile with different firing mods.
    Hawks rape everything without 3+ save, that large blast and 30 shots are awesome, plus you run in cover and nobody is going to target them because they are rally not that much risk.
    Same goes for the vypers, fast, shooty, and long range, outside of small arms weapons, to little threat to focus dedicated AV weapons. Cheaper and more precise than before.
    Haven't tried spiders yet, but the seem very good as midfield supporting unit.
    Avengers are just expansive guardians now, so they are dead, banshees, I am trying to make them work with fusion gun autarch in mechanised wing, along with fire dragons and guardians. We'll see…
    Scorpions are no brainer, and the biggest surprise are shining spears, they got outflank USR, which is great, combine with fusion gun autarch and there you have it, your strong, fast, not so expansive assault unit that forces enemy to deal with them, putting pressure of everything else. Warwalkers and reapers would be good, but they compete with fire prism now, so I'd say no. Plus they cost to much.
    The only thing I feel bad about is crimson hunter, he is good and all, but to expansive, I'd rather take full warp spider squad, but you just have to have him as he is the only reliable anti air defense we got. I really don't like all that "Flyers and stuff" in 6th…
    And of course, jetbikes are gods now, warlocks everywhere, eldar trickery and psychic powers shitting all over the board, people are going to scream in unison, DIE, DIE, YOU STUPID TERMINATORS THAT MOVE 48'' A TURN, or, WHAT DO YOU MEAN, MY COMMISAR IS ld 6 NOW, or, WTF, HOW ARE MY MARINES WOUNDING YOUR JETBIKES ON 5+??? So much possibilities, so much delicious tears to drink!!!!

    • sirbiscuit says:

      It… kind of sounds like we agree on a lot, actually. Mostly it seems you rate Prisms higher, and Hawks much higher than I do.

      Prisms are very good now, I'm just not sold on them as a 3-all-the-time kind of unit. They bring a ton of versatility, but they don't have the specialized power that many of the other HS units bring. That's why I say you should bring them, but keep an eye on them: they're the easiest unit in the 'dex that will always be useful, but can also be swapped for something more specialized.

      The Hawk large blast did get a lot cooler, but their guns are unfortunately still pretty bad. They're a unit that, as you alluded to, is excellent against some armies but not very good against MEQs. It's just a lot of points to spend on a unit that isn't very helpful against 50+% of the armies in the game.

      • fran says:

        Prisms got a mini battle cannon, I play against IG and have learned to fear it. :)
        Well, I'd say it all depends on meta, I play against 4 armies, orks, guard, daemons and space wolfs.
        So you can see why am I so excited about hawks..
        Anyway, time will tell which units are good, and which are excellent.

      • D-R says:

        Hawks have what is essentially a Storm Bolter variant. That's pretty good, especially when combined with dancing right out range of most basic guns.

        • sirbiscuit says:

          It's OK, but 19 points is too much to pay for a stormbolter, especially in a codex which has an abundance of anti-infantry and anti-horde firepower. But there are probably some lists which could make good use of them.

          • Hammerdal says:

            16 pts, actually. May not push em over the brink of useful, but it's a bit better. I certainly wouldn't spam them, but I'll give a squad of them a try. Also like that you never scatter on deepstrike, so you can land right next to cover, toss out a blast, shoot what you want to shoot, then run into cover. Probably won't bother with an Exarch on these guys though.

          • Suijin says:

            Don't the Swooping Hawks have Bladestorm on their weapons to help them kill MEQ OK?

          • sirbiscuit says:

            No, they use laser weaponry instead of shiruken weaponry like everyone else.

          • sirbiscuit says:

            Damn dyslexia!

          • D-R says:

            Taking the Exarch lets you use his BS 5 to fire the large blast and be the guy who throws that one haywire grenade. Seems really worth it to me.

          • Squallish says:

            Also, the Sunrifle, while expensive, does give the unit some diversity. Blind can be a potentially amazing affect, especially against Tau and Necrons.. and 1 dead Marine out of Cover pays for the upgrade.

          • nathanfluger says:

            Honestly, I think the funniest thing that they can bring is an exarch with sunrifle as it is AP3, so it helps you with MEq, but it also causes BLIND. This is probably the first blinding thing worth anything as you can hit those broadsides with it and they are now BS1 most likely. Also, you can play some neat games with them due to their non-scatter ability and shoot/run. Just land them JUUUUST inside 24" of their target, shoot it, then run back out of range of them (and since you have fleet you can re-roll that run roll to increase your chances). This also helps pick off specific stuff in an enemy force, like if they have put their special weapons/heavy weapons towards the back of the unit, if you make just those models and a few others the only enemies in range, you can range snipe them.

            Not saying they are OMGbroken, just that I can see people using them well to good effect. Also, coming with haywire grenades is pretty cool too.

          • abusepuppy says:

            Yeah, I think Hawks are solid as a utility/harassment unit. Their guns are pretty good at hurting infantry, they're very mobile to pull contesting tricks or deny cover, and they aren't so expensive that their relative fragility is crippling. The ability to drop a bomb as they enter play, arrive exactly where they want, and kill tanks that get too close (via Haywire) are also very relevant.

          • sirbiscuit says:

            You're making some good points. Believe me, I want them to be good, but until I see someone use them in a way that not only makes good use of their rules, but also is more effective than bringing more troops to shoot, well, I remain unconvinced. You've got the right ideas, though.

          • nathanfluger says:

            Yeah, the best thing about this dex is the VARIETY of troops and that most of them have a use. Only ones I don't like are storm guardians, everything else totally has a place on the table.

          • _Garnet_ says:

            I think where you're going to find something like Hawks more effective than 'more troops' is in their ability to reach out to your opponent's backfield at will. Eldar troops aren't exactly know for their long-range firepower, after all, and unlike War Walkers, Wraithknights and tanks, the Hawks can immediately put their firepower into a unit from the wrong side of the inevitable cover your opponent has put something valuable behind. This should be particularly useful against, say, grots or Guard blobs or Plaguebearers hanging out behind an Aegis on an objective.

          • teslarod says:

            Paying 16 points a dude to remove Plaguebearers or Guardsmen? Just take another Waveserpent instead. Its starts to be useful turn1 and can hurt tanks and high toughness targets.

          • _Garnet_ says:

            What is a Wave Serpent going to do to a cheap unit of grots or Plaguebearers on an objective constantly going to ground behind an Aegis? Assuming they're not going to ground behind an Aegis behind some LOS-blocking terrain, of course.

          • teslarod says:

            Wounding on 2+ with D6+1 S7 cover ignoring Serpent shield shots plus his twin linked scatter laser of course.

            Dropping behind an Aegis means dying to rapid fire/melee.

          • _Garnet_ says:

            Any Serpent that drops its shield to use it as a gun instead is pretty much guaranteed to explode next turn; it's going to immediately attract all the anti-tank weapons that have been doing nothing but resentfully plinking hull points from the other Serpents. In return for that, you get probably three or four dead models, though with AP- even that's not assured, from a group that's probably either big enough not to have to take a LD test on that miniscule a loss (grots, blob squad) or just straight-up doesn't care about casualties (zombies, Plaguebearers). And again, that's assuming they're not hiding behind an Aegis with a nice big LOS-blocking piece of terrain between them and most of the enemy army's deployment zone, which is not an unlikely deployment for someone using this strategy.

            Hawks drop without scattering, and to the best of my knowledge (though correct me if I'm wrong) get Battle Focus; they can easily land on the edge of their guns' range, which I have not heard has come down from 24", and fire into the squad in question, then scamper further away. Yes, it won't be much use if you're facing someone whose deployment zone is still packed full of counter-assault and support units, but in that case just drop the blast, land somewhere hidden from LOS from nearly everything else, and then try again two turns on.

          • Kirby says:

            "Any Serpent that drops its shield to use it as a gun instead is pretty much guaranteed to explode next turn;"

            Um? Are other vehicles guaranteed to explode normally? No. So Serpents suddenly have this issue when using a very awesome weapon, how? And ya, dropping one shied makes that one Serpent a target, drop all of the shields and go massive shooting craziness. Multiple twin-linked S7 shots which ignore cover is great.

            Regardless of the situation we are discussing here, dropping the shield on the Serpent does not "pretty much guarantee it's going to explode."

          • teslarod says:

            By all means try to land in max weapon range behind my Aegis. Make me care about your S3 AP5 guns (Paguebearers still are T4 and have a 5++, FW have 4+ armour). I'd rather take Serpents and wound on 2s instead if 4/5s.
            Yes Hawks are awesome against…. guardsmen? Can a hawk kill 3 guardsmen a game? Because thats a hawks equal pointwise. Yes? I don't think so…. even in best case scenarios Hawks are not brilliant at what they do. Dedicated T3 5+ slayers are kind of unnecessary.

          • abusepuppy says:

            The thing is, they're not dedicated GEQ-killers. Against anything T4 or lower they are just as good as a guy with a Storm Bolter, and no one calls Grey Knights bad at shooting. Comparing them to a Wave Serpent is silly because those units aren't even vaguely equivalent in any meaningful way other than "they both use shooting attacks."

            Are Hawks needed? Possibly not. They are something of a generalist unit and they aren't _that_ cheap, all things considered. But I think dismissing them as some kind of niche solution is premature- they come equipped with a bunch of different stuff that is useful against many different armies.

          • _Garnet_ says:

            What do you mean, try? They're a deep strike unit that doesn't scatter. You don't have to 'try' to land them somewhere, you just put them where you want them.

          • teslarod says:

            Good luck finding an Aegis with 24" space behind. Thats what I meant.

            Mine usually takes a piece of terrain and expands it. Dropping anwhere behind its covered area usually leaves you without cover in rapid fire and assault range…. maybe I would use Intercept and blow them away with Missilesides anyway.

          • Suijin says:

            Your guns are 24" for swooping hawks, but you only get to run afterwards (with fleet) so you aren't getting very far away really.

            You have to have at least 1 guy within 24" during movement phase to use the grenade pack.

            Strange wording on the if possible you must attack the same unit targetted by the grenade pack. I guess if you choose to run first and are now out of range you can shoot another unit (or if due to dying opponent's models you aren't in range anymore)?

            So land 24" in front of the aegis and drop the grenade pack (ignores cover) and then sidestep to a flank and dump your firepower there.

          • Hammerdal says:

            Blind only works on broadsides if you're opponent forgets that their suits come with blacksun filters, rendering them immune to blind. But I'm gonna give these guys a try and see if they can be worthwhile, just probably not with the exarch.

          • nathanfluger says:

            Blacksun makes you immune to blind? Dawwww.

          • Lotus says:

            Just a quick FYI before tau player corrects you mid battle, broadsides are immune to blind.

          • Lotus says:

            hmmm, hammer beat me too it, didn't spot this reply down here

    • Kirby says:

      Do you play 6th edition? Then you are playing the same "meta" as Biscuit.

      • Alastores says:

        . If in his area, everyone plays Imperial Guard, that means that the army choice is radically different to if everyone plays Space Marines.

        Meta does not mean "What the tournament players play". There's a tournament meta, certainly. But it's not the only metagame that exists for 40k. GW's rules are based around a fluffy metagame. Armies that show up in GW shops end up being picked often due to pricing, not effectiveness. That changes the meta.

        So..no. Him playing 6th means he's playing the same GAME as Biscuit, but it doesn't mean he's playing the same metagame.

        • Kirby says:

          The concept is the same – if you can deal with flyers, infantry, vehicles, etc. – you can win against whatever "local meta" exists. It's far less prevelant than 5th thanks to flyers (i.e. the balance is not there yet) but that isn't going to change what units are good or not. If a unit is good in a niche role and only a niche role, it's not a good unit. It's a niche unit. Meta's don't change this.

          • kristoffer says:

            I feel like your comment right there is why the eldar codex gets so much hate. Its an entire codex of niche units. It always has been and thats just the way the race plays. I would be upset if it WASN'T a codex of niche units.

          • abusepuppy says:

            The difference between a niche unit and a specialist unit is that the specialist does their job well, or can handle a sufficient class of targets (i.e. "all tanks" or "all regular infantry") or is cheap enough it's not a problem.

            A Melta CCS is a specialist unit- it's very good at doing one thing and isn't really capable of doing a lot else outside that. Tankbustas are a niche unit- they are TOO focused on what they to, to the point where their cost is not really justifiable.

            It's not an absolute division but rather a gradient between the two.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            True in theory, in practice however the universal meta you allude to doesn't exist. Every tournament has its idiosyncrosies. Every player group has units and codexes that are more or less prevalent than a random other player group. What ever you envision when you use the word "meta" is dictated by your actual experiences, which can be influenced by global trends as they make their way to the internet, but don't really fully encompass them. Surely not enough to make any definitive claim on a global, universal, meta.

            Take the resent Adepticon for example. Many idiots try to claim some of the top lists were crap and try to allude to some universal meta where those lists wouldn't be good. Its a bullshit argument. You should always take the specific tournament and specific players you know you are facing in mind when crafting a list. In reality, there is not such thing as the invisible generic opponent who is only wielding the generically "good" units.

            Sorry /soapbox.

          • abusepuppy says:

            At the same time, however, you never know exactly what supposed meta you're going to be playing against. Are there nine Tyranid players at your local shop? Maybe none of them show up that week, or you never get matched against them.

            Certainly there is some value in knowing what to expect, but you HAVE to plan for a more generalistic field or you're going to get crushed by something you hadn't considered.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            >>At the same time, however, you never know exactly what supposed meta you're going to be playing against.

            Well, sometimes you do. For instance, if you are attending NOVA and you can't take what ever list de jour Tony is packing, you probably should edit your list… :)

            Also, everything comes down to choice, since there really isn't really true TAC lists anymore. Not to say you can't design a list that has a reasonable chance against all opponents, but simply that there isn't a single list that comfortably beats every extreme. Which is good, because that single list then becomes THE list.

            Anyway, in 6th edition you have to make choices. You need to be able handle FMCs, LRs, etc. However, if you KNOW you might face John Doe and his 4 LRs, but no one has taken 6 FMCs to your store ever, then you will tend to compensate more for the former at the expense of the latter.

          • artemi7 says:

            As the only 'nid player in my area, I have no idea how to properly fight Tervigons. It's never come up.

          • Alastores says:

            I'm not entirely sure you understand what the term means, Kirby. What you are talking about is the game.

            The meta is the things you routinely come across. If none of my opponents EVER fields vehicles or fliers, then it is the wrong choice in my meta to take weapons to defeat vehicles or fliers.

  7. Hyd says:

    I don’t see the point of the autarch build, sure he’ll be able to kill something in a challenge, then what? He’s stuck with anything MEq forever (and even if he disengages, taking two turns to kill 5 MEq is not really that efficient…). Is there something else?

    • sirbiscuit says:

      He has Hit and Run, so you just jump out again. He's not something that's going to go solo a bunch of units (he's just one guy, after all) but he can take out weakened squads and help neuter a lot of important ability-granting characters. While I agree he's not great in a vacuum, I think you'd see a lot of synergy with him in many lists.

    • blacksly says:

      The point is that with his mobility, he can hit and damage firepower units like Long Fangs. Using him against a regular Tactical Squad is not a strength, but the fact that he can zoom past the opponent's front lines to start assaulting rear-line firepower units like Broadsides and Long Fangs and Heavy Weapon Squads is his major strength.

      A stronger assault unit can do more damage, but the main weakness of assault vs shooting is not a lack of damage ability… it's that assault units often get to assault only what the opponent exposes for you to assault, while firepower units get to shoot almost whoever they want. So an assault unit that can bypass the opponent's choice is a great unit. Jetbike assault units are great, but there are very few good ones available.

      • Sethis_II says:

        I'd be very cautious about Broadsides – getting overwatched by SMS and/or railguns can be very painful. Tau in general is probably his hard counter due to their plethora of ignore cover weaponry.

        • blacksly says:

          He still gets 3+ armor against the SMS, and as I recall, the sensor buffs that allow a squad to get Ignore Cover only works during the Tau shooting phase, so the Railguns/HYMPs wouldn't get it on Overwatch.

          • @Onnotangu says:

            Let's Face it his hard counter is probably a Heldrake with its flamer and Vector Strikes, does the jetbike give him increased toughness? At least that way he won't get instagibbed.

          • teslarod says:

            I'm not sure if an Autarch still has a 4++ by default (or even had… actually he might just have had the option to grab one). But I think it was the case.

            Yes the bike makes him T4 so he should survive a few S6/7 hits.

          • abusepuppy says:

            He does still come with the Forceshield as standard.

            Eldar Jetbikes give a silly number of upgrades for their points, especially to multiwound models.

    • clever handle says:

      two "turns" or two "game turns" ? two "turns" is ideal as I charge, kill, stuck in combat & thus protected from shooting, kill more in your turn, break & free to charge again in mine.

    • PsychoSquire says:

      And lets not forget his main purpose in a list is to hit backfield units like havocs or longfangs. Or take out choice 4+ units like special weapons squads or pathfinders. Using him like a scalpel and not a hammer he can be pretty damn useful, letting your hammers do their job on the more important targets.

    • kristoffer says:

      I really like the autarch scalpel analogy. Its basically what a lot of races would do with a deep strike. hit the vulnerable meat behind your army with something that comes in…does its point cost in damage to some kind of vital target and then typically falls to weight of fire. the str6 autarch with a meltagun basically does the same thing for about the points of a squad…less than if u are delivering via drop pod. As an added bonus while he's not invincible the autarch has a reasonable chance of getting away or moving to secondary targets unlike something coming out of a drop pod that generally is limited to 6" after.

      All in all if you are the type of player who wound find a reason to drop pod a few marines in someone's backfield you should be able to make good use of the autarch. havocs, devastators, rear armor 10 support tanks. these are all low hanging fruit for the autarch.

    • Kirby says:

      Harassment.

      He's getting 5 WS6, S6 AP3 attacks on the charge at I6 – as long as he's not going against 2+ units that's reliable enough to poke through a handful of Marines and with Hit & Run, pop out the next turn and continue taking out backfield squads, etc. Anything that's not a Marine withou 2+ armor or Fearless, likely gets swept.

      And he of course is a great objective contester late game.

      • Hammerdal says:

        The problem I see with it is that he charges a unit of devastators or equivalent, then gets challenged by the sarge, and uses all the attacks killing the guy without a heavy weapon. Then the next turn he at least keeps the heavy weapons from firing, but then he's down to just 4 S3 attacks that don't ignore armor, which probably won't do much. You can of course get around this by sniping out the squad leader ahead of time with some Rangers or what have you, but I think it's something that needs to be considered.

        • sirbiscuit says:

          That may be a bad example, as you don't even need rangers to kill the leader as he's likely up front dying first so that the heavy weapons can be spared anyway, but I get what you're saying.

          I think it's still OK, as you're neutering an enemy squad. Even if, in your example, he were killed in the second round of combat, he's probably approaching the his worth in points by stopping enemy firepower. If he survives, well, he gets to jump out and charge in again and kill a bunch of dudes.

          He also wins almost any challenge outright (barring a 2+ save or beatstick character status) which means a lot of people may not even accept the challenge if their sarge is equipped with anything valuable. And, as Kirby alluded to, you can probably sweep most non-marine units with him after you lay down the smack.

          When next we fight, we shall try him out! =D

    • derreavatar says:

      Farseer+Byke+Mantle+Firesabre=100+15+40+30=185

      st 4 AP3 attacks, hit & run , reroll cover saves. Some powers could be insane ( death mission..) , or go with telepathy debuffs..

      • Ulthniel says:

        I may be on the wrong track here, but if mantle removes IC, and the jetbike sets type to (jetbike), does this make this autarch/farseer build not a character? ie cannot be challenged etc… maybe the type is actually set to (jetbike character) but I cannot find this stated anywhere!

  8. DOMIN4TRIX says:

    Has anyone read the Iyanden codex yet, apparently you can take a Wraithknight as your warlord – what other goodies does that book have….. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pi

  9. artemi7 says:

    This. HAS anyone read the Iyanden book yet? I wanna know if we're back to the days of alt army lists? Or is it just fluffy wraithboners everywhere?

  10. Obuhm Gaagh says:

    There is one character in the codex that interests me, both rules- and modelwise, and that is Illic Nightspear. But before I make the purchase I'd like to ask the more experienced players a question about his infiltrating ability. I've seen it often suggested in here that an IC can grant the infiltrate on a squad he joins. I am not disputing it, but I'd like to know what you guys are basing it on, since I've seen opposing claims on other forums, something about squads without infiltrate being forced to deploy before the IC with infiltrate thus making them unable to join during deployment. Granted these claims come from the same forums that once claimed that you can't shoot a flamer out of a rhino hatch so… I don't know.

    Anyways second question would be whether Illics special infiltrate rule confers on to a squad he is with, but I guess answer to that is something no one knows for sure. Would be too risky to start making plans based on it until it gets FAQ'd I think.

    • Ludo says:

      There is a specific rule in the book that states why infiltrate doesn't apply to an IC if he doesn't have it. See page 38 of the main rulebook. You also can't infiltrate with an IC unless the IC also has infiltrate. If he could it would say so in the infiltrate rule. The debate usually focuses on outflank as the wording for outflank says you can outflank if one model has it. pg 40. The controversy is outflankers are infiltrators since one rule grants the other. I, however, think it's clear that you can outflank an IC joined to a unit with the infiltrate special rule.

      • hempfig says:

        You can infiltrate a unit with a IC that have infiltrate,
        You can NOT infiltrate a IC with a unit with infiltrate
        IC give infiltrate to those he joins
        A unit does not give any powers to an IC unless otherwise stated (autarch can get aspect warrior abilities)

        Illic is very good with dark reapers, you can infiltrate them in ruins for a 2+ cover save due to illics shrouded, also works with scorps to give them better survivability first round, he can the leave and joins rangers/pathfinders

        with dark reapers illic can fire on the move as slow and purposeful specifically says it is shared, same with their ignore jink save

        Pathfinders are actually well worth their points if played carefully, its easy to forget how awesome it is to have all shots be precision shots, don't go for HQ's and characters, they have look out sir, the special weps in the unit does not.

        Stay back, react and annoy!

        • Alastores says:

          You are aware no one cares about the IC/Infiltrate issue currently, because we have no idea what the rule will be in three weeks time?

          • hempfig says:

            People who want to play a game before those new rules become real care, I am actually playing a game later today, for obvious reasons changes happening 3 weeks from now does not change the current rules we have to follow in our game today.

            If your comment had any value I failed to find it.

          • Alastores says:

            And you quite likely know what your opponent's opinion on the subject is, therefore the "Value" in your attempting to debate the subject on a YEAR OLD topic, about a rule set that is outdated in two weeks is…rather absent.

          • hempfig says:

            Common, don't pretend you think my example is the only game being played by anyone at all during this time frame, do you know what brought me here? A google search for something related to a game that I needed to figure out. Do you know what other people might do? Google searches that will take them to this site, the fact you read my comment validates its existence and prove that other people actually see it and thus they can use the information in the post if they want, even if you fail to see this.

            just because something does not add value to YOU does not mean it is worthless to everyone.

            Have a nice day though, lol

    • artemi7 says:

      Not seeing the new dex yet, I can't say for sure if his special version transfers, but regular Infiltrate most defintly transfers to squads ICs join.

      Pg. 38, Infiltrate first sentence. 'Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last,'. And Pg39, Independent Character second paragraph. 'An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it, or if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.'

      So Infiltrate tells us as long as one dude has it, everyone has it. And IC says they can start the game attached. I'm… not sure how there could be any possible confusion.

      Edit: Ah, I see the possible confusion point. The last paragraph of Infiltrate. Well, that's says non-Infiltrate ICs cannot join Infiltrating squad, but doesn't cover the opposite. Which the two sentences I pointed out DO cover.

      • Obuhm Gaagh says:

        That's how I am reading it too. But with 40k there always seem to be some kind of confusion. I think people who claim that IC with infiltrate do not confer it on the squad they join, mean to say that it is not possible for the IC with infiltrate to join a squad without it in the first place, because squads that do not have infiltrate must be deployed first and the IC with infiltrate must be deployed last. So, in essence they claim both IC and the squad aren't deployed simultaneously. Those without infiltrate must be placed an your own deployment zone first, then when infiltrators are deployed you can or maybe even must deploy the IC alone.

      • Obuhm Gaagh says:

        So, basically it all comes down to how joining IC to a squad is phrased. You can join a unit by being deployed in coherency. Which would mean you can infiltrate in to your own deployment zone where the squad your IC wishes to join awaits him.

        • artemi7 says:

          Thats's not what the rules for ICs joining squads says, though. They say you can 'begin the game already with a unit'. Tbey don't join during deployment. They are ALREADY attached to the squad, even before the deployment starts. Begining the game happens before deployment, surely, and as the game starts, they are already attached.

          • SomeCallMeTim says:

            You skip the part that tells how they begins the game with the unit there.
            "An independant character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, [...reserve stuff...]”
            You deploy the character in coherency with the squad, thus starting the game with the unit. But at that stage, the unit must already have deployed, or the IC wouldn't be able to deploy in coherency.
            The unit didn't have an Infiltrate character with them at the point they were deployed, thus can't infiltrate.

          • Marillion says:

            You can infiltrate the unit. P39 "An Independent Character can begging the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency……" P38 (Infiltrate) Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last,"

          • SomeCallMeTim says:

            In order for you to deploy the IC in coherency, you must already have deployed the squad.
            The unit don't contain the IC until he have deployed with them, thus the unit lacks the infiltrate rule and must be deployed normally.

          • Marillion says:

            "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last".

            Straight from the rule book. You deploy them last with the model who has the special rule. It's not in the least ambiguous. It then goes on to explain where you can then deploy this unit. It's both RAW and RAI as far as I can see. Even if RAI is debatable for some rules the RAW isn't.

            The confusion for some stems from the Big Rule Book giving an example showing how people can see the Independent Character has been deployed with the unit. It's just an example on how your opponent can see, it's not the actual rule itself. If we needed the rule book to give specific examples for every conceivable way of playing all the rules then the book would expand beyond belief.

          • SomeCallMeTim says:

            The unit doesn't contain the character until the IC deploys in unit coherency with them. That is how he joins them according to the rules for IC joining units on page 39..
            In order for for the IC to deploy in coherency, the unit must have been placed ahead of the IC. At which point, they do not have the infiltrate rule and thus makes a standard deployment,

          • Marillion says:

            Thats a really "interesting" reinterpretation of the rules. Your basing it on one of the examples in a scenario of how to deploy units rather than the rule itself.

            I will stick with the rule book for now.

            Without having the rules for other scenarios with me at present I can think of one major example of how your reinterpretation would change the way four popular codecies deploy units. All four would have to stop how they currently do this and change to your way. When I get access to the rule book I will post up what I am thinking and say if I (and everyone who plays with the other codicies) have always been wrong.

          • Marillion says:

            OK, back home now and read the relevant section I was referring to above – Dedicated Transports. (Don't know why I thought of only 4 codices though as this applies to all).

            OK, by your reading of the rules an Independent Character (IC) is joined to a unit by the unit (or IC) being deployed and then the IC (or unit) then being deployed in coherency with them. My reading is the player says they are both being deployed (or reserved) together and then proceeding to deploy (or reserve) them at the same time.

            If you are right then an IC cannot be deployed with a unit in their Dedicated Transport (DT)…..

            The rules for DTs are simple (page 78).
            "….. when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it)."

            Now, if as is being claimed ICs can only join a unit by placing one on the board and then placing the other in coherency with it then an IC would have to actually embark as the unit with its transport is already on the board and the only way for anyone else to get in is "A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2 inches of its Access Points in the Movement Phase…." (P78).

            Clearly this is not the case as everyone deploys them together, as intended and written in the rule book.

          • blacksly says:

            You are correct.

            The rule must either be interpreted that ICs with Infiltrate can join a squad and give it Infiltrate, and at the same time ICs can join a unit inside a Transport, OR that neither is possible. If an IC cannot join a unit to give it Infiltrate, then it also cannot join a unit inside a Transport.

            GW's Battle Reports show that ICs sometimes begin in Transports with units. Therefore, GW's playtesters interpret that ICs can join squads before those squads are put on the table.

            I think that there is a reasonable argument to make using RAW, but clearly it's not how GW's playtesters play.

          • hempfig says:

            infiltrate is part of deployment, it is just not main deployment.
            Deployment, infiltrate and scout moves and other forms of re-deployment are all part of deployment hence the rules being there in the first place and also why things like "redeploy" etc are mentioned when talking about parts of the game before it actually started.
            If what you say is correct (its not) then we would also be unable to deploy IC's within a dedicated transport as that too happen "before deployment" if using your view of what deployment is instead of what the rule book say.

            It is also a fact that all tournaments that matter or sources known to have a good take on rules say you are able to infiltrate units with an IC with infiltrate and many if not most also stretch it further saying another IC joining the unit will get infiltrate because the rule says an IC can not gain the benefits from the unit but there is no rule saying an IC can not benefit from another IC's abilities But it does say an IC give it to those he join.

            The only part debatable is if another IC can get the benefit or not though logic usually prevails and give you the option to infiltrate a non infiltrate IC if another IC with infiltrate is part of the same unit.

  11. NotSoGreatWolf says:

    Damn, now you've gone and got me all excited about these Eldar! My wallet is already crying in a corner somewhere since the Tau release, and now my creditcard has requested protective custody…

  12. Sethis_II says:

    I like that someone remembered the balanced approach. Nice one! It's not all about the spam any more. I'll be taking two different HQs, and very few repeat units except two squads of walkers because that torrent of S6 is just so beautiful against everything.

    • Ludo says:

      I see a lot of units being spammed from this list. I can see double Farseers, multiple units of jetbike guardians, 3 fire prisms. Nothing else I have seen stands out as an amazing unit. There are a lot of good units which gives us options. Options are always nice.

      • Sethis_II says:

        Really? I see Autarch Scalpel and Farseer/Wraithseer depending on how many scatter lasers you have and your Troops choices. I see plenty of options for Troops – I know I'll be taking Avengers, Jetbikes and Rangers – three good units in FA and 3 Prisms in HS is, frankly, stupid. Single Blasts at BS4 are incredibly inefficient against certain units (such as Flyers) where the twin linked dakka of Walkers, the Aegis-ignoring Barrage of SW Platforms or the toughness of a Wraithknight/Lords would be better utilised.

      • artemi7 says:

        The take away I'm getting from this and the AP article is that all the cool units I like are worth taking. I think my list is gonna look like a Far/Boneseer, Biker Autarch, 1 unit of Hawks, Spiders, Spears, and Scorpions, 2 squads of guardians, rangers, and wraithguard, with something like 2 wraithlords and a squad of warwalkers. Sounds like all three hulls are likely going Serpants this time. Maybe some Harlies, if I'm feeling crazy.

        How many of those were good in the last book? The Serpants and Scorpions, maybe?

    • sirbiscuit says:

      I think that's something that's extremely important in listbuilding in general. Even if you have a theme, diversity pays off. Nothing is as omnipresant and crushingly durable as vehicles were last edition, so it's better to worry less about a concentrated counter to a specific unit, and more about gaining maximum flexibility.

  13. Dakka'th says:

    Can't wait for the Taudar article, that's the combination I'll most likely be picking up since I can't get a taucron list I like. I wonder who's better as the parent list, Tau or Eldar?

    • Coyote81 says:

      I would say if you take Tau as the parent list, minimize your eldar units to maximize your synergy within your codex. With Eldar as the parent unit, try to stick to Tau units that aren't entirely dependent on markerlights to operate. Maybe an Anti-air Shas'o with puretide (2x Mpods, ewo, velocity, puretide, iridium armor), big squad of firewarrior for home objectives (use guide here to make them good) and maybe some anti-air broadsides(HYMpods velocity tracer 2x missiledrones).

  14. Dreagin says:

    Does fast shot allow you to shoot an extra shot with an icarus lascannon? A dark reaper exarch shooting 2 BS 5 lascannon shots that ignore jink every turn could be scary.

    • kristoffer says:

      yes it does. previously fire dragon exarch took the win for using emplaced guns cause he had tank hunter but with the point changes and lack of tank hunter and ignores jink a reaper exarch is now the cheaper fast shot option and better at it. though i'd still question whether 2 shots form the icarus is better then 5 from the quad gun.

      • Sokhar says:

        In the case of adding an extra shot, I would venture a guess that the Icarus fares better. That doubles its rate of fire, whereas the autocannon only gets +255%. In the article on anti-flyer options the quadgun came out ahead of the Icarus in almost every situation. However doubling the percentages for the Icarus would probably swing things its way instead.

  15. Shadar_Logoth says:

    Good review SB.

    Just a quick comparison between Scorps and Shees, in hopes it will dispel some of the relative myths (it won't, because people are stubborn, but just for funsies):

    To keep things as even as possible, I'm comparing 8 Scorps W/Exarch+Claw to 10 Shees W/Exarch+Excutionare and Fear (mainly for even points), (So 176 points and 175 points, respectively).

    First, resilience. It takes 36 Bolter shots on average to kill 8 Scorps where as it takes 30 Bolter shots on average to kill 10 Shees. So, while they are more resilient, its not by much. Keep in mind, they die just the same to things like Helldrakes. Of course, there is some AP 4 running around that will mince the Shees out of cover, but all and all its pretty rare.

    Charging MEq, assuming the Exarch gets challenged in both cases (which any smart opponent would), the 7 Scorps kill about 2.62 while the 9 Shees kill 4.5. This is also assuming all 8 Scorps get into BtB, which isn't really all that likely.

    So the Shees are clearly the harder hitters. They have better numbers against Warriros (Fire, Necron, and Kabalite), Guard and equivalent as well, with the added bonus through having the fear roll (if it were to be taken). Orcs and TEq are the only two unit types that the Scorps will have better CC numbers against.

    The intangibles. Scorps have grenades, so against most of the units you actually charge, they will take slightly less casualties the first round of CC, if assaulting into cover against units with I4 or less. 10 Tacticals, for instance, will kill 1.67 Shees or .78 Scorps (assuming the Scorps kill 3 first). This…well, it quite simply isn't anywhere near the neighborhood as big of an advantage that people make it out to be. 1 Model difference, on the first round of combat, when assaulting into cover, against I4 or less. Particularly when the Shees go onto kill almost twice as many guys, and will revert to their superior I after the first round. Weird that people keep bringing this up, when in all practicality it quite simple doesn't make a huge difference.

    Scorps have Stealth, which is definitely nice, and Infiltrate, although I would use a WS to deliver either unit to the battlefield. Scorps are faster through cover while Shees are faster on the open ground on turns when they aren't assaulting. Shees improved speed also allows them to really abuse Battle Focus, which considering they are lugging around Rending Pistols this edition I think this is a more relevant then people probably think.

    Anyway, I can't really say which I would rather take, I feel like it would depend on the list and the prevailing opponents I was facing, but anyone who says that Shees don't have any true advantages simply isn't looking at the real numbers.

    • Sethis_II says:

      Use neither. Take more shooting units. Profit!
      :P

    • abusepuppy says:

      AP4 isn't that rare. Psycannons, Autocannons, Railguns blasts, etc are all roaming around in spades.

      I think the fact that you're ignoring Banshees lack of any kind of delivery system is pretty critical. If you can't get to the enemy, you can't assault them, period. Running across the battlefield on foot is a great way to lose all your models and if you buy them a Wave Serpent… well, why are you putting Banshees in there and not something better? Guardians, DA, Dragons, etc, all can make use of the Serpent as well and don't have to jump through hoops and waste a turn sitting outside in order to do so.

      • Shadar_Logoth says:

        >>AP4 isn't that rare. Psycannons, Autocannons, Railguns blasts, etc are all roaming around in spades.

        So… primarily anti tank weapons. Please shoot those at my Shees. Please. Thank you ahead of time for the easy win.

        >>Guardians, DA, Dragons, etc, all can make use of the Serpent as well and don't have to jump through hoops and waste a turn sitting outside in order to do so.

        If I had 3 Serpents hitting a flank, I would rather have two of them with units you mentioned above, and one with Shees (or Scorpions), then all three with units you mentioned above. Its a more versatile setup and is more difficult to counter. And really, compare the firepower you get out of a WS full of Guardians versus the firepower you get out of a WS full of Shees. You're sacking about ~50% of the pewpew for much more competent CC ability. So, you're really not "waisting" that one turn at all. Its more like getting slightly less out of one turn to get much more out of subsequent turns.

        >>I think the fact that you're ignoring Banshees lack of any kind of delivery system is pretty critical.

        How did I ignore that? I mentioned the Scorps have Infiltrate and the Shees don't. I just think with either unit I would rather have the WS, because both units will die rather quickly when out in the open (even if in cover).

        • Matt-Shadowlord says:

          I'd mention heavy bolters, heavy flamers, griffons, nova cannons, grenade launchers, inferno cannons, heavy incinerators and so on, but the possession of so many of such items makes me want Eldar opponents to load up on Banshees.

          Elf meat for the grinder!

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            Are we really playing the "there are weapons that are good against unit X" game?

            Every weapon in the game has weapons that are good against. The fact is, AP 4 weapons are generally not taken in favor of things like Plasma. Most people don't take anything you just listed when they have alternatives. People just don't load up on AP 4. Of course, you knew that already….not sure why I'm the one having to point it out.

          • zdog says:

            Heavy Bolters are cheap (on certain templates), and heavy flamers are cheap. I play tau, so the banshees are laughable to me (pulse rifles lololol, try chewing through my ig/kroot bubblewrap). And psycannons are often taken in magnitude to be used as both anti-infantry and anti-tank (rending makes versatility)

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            Yes, Heavy Bs and Fs are cheap, and still rarely taken. And Psycannons are versatile. Say I have 6 Wave Serpents on the field, and Shees hiding behind one of those. You really going to ignore the Wave Serpents and run your entire army so you can hit the Shees hiding out of LOS?

            I didn't think so.

            I'm not even going to dignify the rest of your post with a response. Eyes, sufficiently, rolled.

          • teslarod says:

            Do you even realize the problem with your argument Shadar?

          • abusepuppy says:

            He basically never does, no.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            Nice rebuttal.

          • teslarod says:

            So I can take this as you don't realize?

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            Yes. Complete head up my ass ignorance over here.

          • teslarod says:

            Basically Scorpions don't need a delivery System and are some kind of tough thanks to 3+ saves and Stealth while Banshees demand a Serpent that still lets them sit around for a tun before they can do anything exept poking at things with Shuriken pistols.

            Having them sitting in the back hiding behind their Serpent is a waste of points that should have been invested in more shooting.

            Scorpions are still not particulary good. Living Eldar should avoid melee at all costs anyway. The only ones good at it are their MCs and Wraithguys until some dedicated assault unit shows up to teach them a lesson or two.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            >>Having them sitting in the back hiding behind their Serpent is a waste of points that should have been invested in more shooting.

            That's a stupid way to look at the game. Just completely stupid. No unit, ever, ever, ever, is contributing 100% of its prowess every turn of the game. Zero units do that. 100% of the units in the game have turns when they aren't doing much, if anything.

            Do you not see the flaw in your argument? Do you want me to spell it out for you a bit further?

          • abusepuppy says:

            No, we're playing the "these are a bunch of pretty common weapons that get used a lot." Griffons are excellent. Heavy Flamers come on every tank in the IG armory. Grenade Launchers are in a number of places. Heavy Bolters are common in certain places (Psybacks are still good, etc.)

            Also: Flickering Fire, Manticores, Spore Mines, Assault Cannons, Power Mauls, Missile Pods, Heavy Incinerators, Impaler Cannons, and many more.

            People may not load up on AP4, but a lot of weapons have it as an incidental benefit and many of those weapons ignore or mitigate cover.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            Yes, and a lot of weapons have AP 3 which will favor the Shees over the Scorpions in RPP. This is why I didn't want to even get into this line of thinking, because in the end, its a wash.

            Particularly when the optimal way to use the Shees keeps them out of LOS until they are in combat. I really don't give a shit if Heavy Bolters that can't see them kill them efficiently. Is that so hard to comprehend?

          • abusepuppy says:

            If just keeping guys out of LOS until they were guaranteed a charge was an option, melee armies would never lose.

            In the real world, people shoot at your models.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            The new Wave Serpent dynamics potentially changes that. For reasons that have already been stated.

          • teslarod says:

            Which ones? That its not boxy thus bad at hiding models and way to expensive for this job?

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            The fact that it doesn't explode, and therefore rendering its LOS blocking abilities useless? A liability all other transports must deal with?

            If you run 2 or 3 WS together you easily hide the contents behind those hulls. You simply don't know what the fuck you are talking about, in either case.

          • abusepuppy says:

            Keeping the shield active means giving up a non-insignificant amount of firepower, however. S7 Ignores cover is nothing to sneeze at, especially when you're twin-linking it. (And since by definition you can only have moved 6" when disembarking some guys you ARE giving up shooting that gun.)

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            >>(And since by definition you can only have moved 6" when disembarking some guys you ARE giving up shooting that gun.)

            I get what you are saying with most of the post, there is some opportunity cost there. I'm not sure what this means though. Why would moving 6" keep you from shooting anything? It seems like you are implying if you move more then 6" you can shoot more? It is fast, but that doesn't seem to make a difference between 6 and 12 inches?

          • abusepuppy says:

            If you move 12", you can argue that you only get to shoot two guns anyways, so you aren't "giving up" as much to hold back the Shield (since you have two other guns to fire.)

            However, if you move 6" you can fire any number of weapons, so you inarguably are paying an opportunity cost there.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            Because you're holding onto the shield. Right on. Makes sense.

        • abusepuppy says:

          >So… primarily anti tank weapons.

          Psycannons sometimes come in units that are good at killing infantry, I hear. And Tau don't lack for guns to break tanks, so they can easily afford to dedicate a couple of them to smashing your assault unit.

          > Its a more versatile setup and is more difficult to counter.

          How so? The counter to all of those units is generally "shoot them and they die"; Banshees are, in fact, LESS versatile because they have a dictated behavior (moving forward rather than being able to hide) and can draw fire in ways the others won't (Avengers don't get Overwatched.)

          >And really, compare the firepower you get out of a WS full of Guardians versus the firepower you get out of a WS full of Shees.

          Uh, no? Those units don't cost the same, so comparing them is silly. Should I also compare how much damage a Rhino full of Death Company does compared to a Rhino full of Tactical Marines?

          >How did I ignore that? I mentioned the Scorps have Infiltrate and the Shees don't.

          You glossed over the point when it is basically the most important part of the unit. If Wave Serpents were assault transports, Banshees would be good. They aren't, so they aren't.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            >>so they can easily afford to dedicate a couple of them to smashing your assault unit.

            The one that they can't see?

            >>How so? The counter to all of those units is generally "shoot them and they die"

            The one that they can't see?

            >>Uh, no? Those units don't cost the same, so comparing them is silly.

            Way to miss the point. And, with a weapon platform and a lock, the two units could easily cost the same. Still, completely missed the point.

            >>You glossed over the point when it is basically the most important part of the unit. If Wave Serpents were assault transports, Banshees would be good. They aren't, so they aren't.

            Cool. I can see you aren't even going to try to tactic once before completely writing it off. Wise move.

      • Coyote81 says:

        Heavybolters…..

    • Avatar says:

      I think the real issue here is that you're not really comparing the two units in isolation.

      The Scorpions don't need help getting into combat. They infiltrate and will get a turn 2 charge off unless the enemy can maneuver radically away or has special wargear. They can move, not just into cover, but THROUGH it in order to reach their target.

      The Banshees need that transport. Not only that, but that transport can't get them a turn 2 charge unless the enemy comes forward to meet you; even if you flat out directly at the enemy on turn 1, and disembark on turn 2, there will be no charge happening until turn 3. (Yeah, yeah, you have pistols. Woo!)

      I'm prepared to grant that the Wave Serpent's a nice unit and that it's not a free kill. On the other hand, if you have a WS full of Banshees, it's a damned good target! If you can reach out and touch that thing back in the deployment zone (especially turn 1, before it has any jink save), then not only have you killed 120+ points of skimmer, but you've also delayed that Banshee charge… and put them in a position where relatively light fire will really whittle down their numbers. A couple mid-strength templates or moderate anti-infantry fire will gut the unit.

      (Not that Scorpions are invulnerable to that fire, but 3+ and hanging out in cover by preference makes it harder for the enemy to put a big dent in them without devoting serious or specialized firepower.)

      • Shadar_Logoth says:

        >>They infiltrate and will get a turn 2 charge off unless the enemy can maneuver radically away or has special wargear.

        I use Flayed Ones, Mandrakes, and variety of other Infiltrators. Infiltrate only gets you a turn 2 charge if your opponent wants to be charged turn 2. There is nothing radical about it.

        >>(Yeah, yeah, you have pistols. Woo!)

        Rending pistols. Yeah, they are pretty decent.

        >>especially turn 1, before it has any jink save

        Again, the idea is you have multiple WS. Do you really think I'm going to stick the WS with the most expensive cargo in front? Or even in range of most of your shooting? Doesn't seem likely,.

        >>(Not that Scorpions are invulnerable to that fire, but 3+ and hanging out in cover by preference makes it harder for the enemy to put a big dent in them without devoting serious or specialized firepower.)

        Scorpions have their advantages, no doubt. Hanging around in cover and threatening board area is a very useful role. My biggest purpose in writing this is to dispel the myth that Shees have zero advantages of their own, when they clearly do.

        • abusepuppy says:

          >I use Flayed Ones, Mandrakes, and variety of other Infiltrators. Infiltrate only gets you a turn 2 charge if your opponent wants to be charged turn 2

          Ha ha, oh man I can't believe I'm seeing this. SAY IT AGAIN.

          • teslarod says:

            Well he used Infiltrators to catch some rapid fire bullets early on I guess… you could say it sounds like some kind of plan, maybe…. nahhh most likely not.

            But lets hear the plan behind before judging, shall we?

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            I don't even know what you are talking about. What plan are you referring to?

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            You knew that. Are you just being intentionally obtuse?

    • Cuddy says:

      Your numbers are wrong, btw.

      9 Banshees, 1 attack base plus pistol and charge, 21 attacks.

      Hitting on 4s, 10.5 hits.

      Wounding on 5s, 3.5 dead marines.

      How is getting 8 Scorpions into BtB not likely, but 10 Banshees is?

      • kristoffer says:

        His numbers are correct. Or is a challenged and murdered seargent no longer a marine? 1+3.5 does in fact equal 4.5.

        • Cuddy says:

          His numbers and description are wrong then, since he clearly says "9 banshees", implying not the exraxh. And then the killed seargent isn't being counted for the scorpions (he has the right number of dead MEQs for the non exarch).

          Either way its wrong.

      • SomeCallMeTim says:

        9 banshees * 3 A each on the charge = 27 A.

        The Scorpions needs to be in BtB to use their Mandiblasters, but are unlikely to get everyone in on the charge.

        • ladiesop says:

          Do you get to make your pile in move on the Mandiblaster attack, or just on their own initiative?

          • abusepuppy says:

            The implication from other, similar effects (like Hammer of Wrath) is that you don't get to pile in.

        • Cuddy says:

          This was my mistake then, I apologize. My thoughts on the matter are typed out somewhere else here though.

      • Shadar_Logoth says:

        :)

        As Tim points out, 9 times 3 is indeed 27.

    • Hammerdal says:

      I think Biscuit and I figured out how to make Banshees work (if you're gonne be set on taking them). Ally in DEldar and attach either an Archon w/ phantasm grenade launcher (and probably shadowfield) or Baron Sathonyx. This gives Banshees grenades, someone to tank hits, and if you took the Baron also Hit & Run and Stealth. And as long as you're allying DEldar, take their Harlequin entry because that one still grants everpresent stealth and shrouded (until they FAQ it, anyway).
      Not sure if this plan is actually good, but it can get you some pretty solid melee units if that's what you want

      • Hammerdal says:

        Also if you're keen on using the overpriced Jain Zar, either unit will give her grenades.

      • Shadar_Logoth says:

        That Baron idea is pretty interesting.

        • Alastores says:

          It's really quite disturbing that the only way to use Banshees is to remove their ability to use the one new rule they got this edition. Oh well.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            Wow, someone makes a single suggestion, and a good one, but now that is "the only way" to run them. How ridiculously narrow minded and short sided some members of the 40k community are.

          • random player says:

            Indeed, personally I would just use a dark eldar assault transport for them, people seem to forget that banshees have power weps while scorpions don't. I would assault a tactical marine squads with banshees before scorpions if both had an equal chance at the charge for that reason alone

  16. Bassie says:

    Great article.

    Your thoughts on a couple of things, both air related? Please?

    1. Best anti-air in the dex? I am thinking that warpspiders with guide / prescience (lots of TL S7 shots)

    2. I'd love to see a "guide to vector dancer: keep your AV10 flyer alive" type article. Assuming the crimson hunter goes on before the en flyer, where is the safest place to put it on the table? Is it middle of the table, near enemy table edge?

    • abusepuppy says:

      There essentially isn't anywhere you can hide from them if you come on first; even if you get up on their table edge, they can always come in from the other side and tag you like that.

      Warp Spiders are a bit short-ranged to be good AA; Wave Serpents are probably your best bet.

      • Bassie says:

        Hadn't even thought of that… and that shield attack is TL if the scatter hits with one of its shots. GOLD. Thanks mate.

        • teslarod says:

          The best anti flyer is most likely the Crimson Hunter. Its expensive but is able to wreck a Landraider. I can't complain about it beeing a glasscannon considering the Codex its included in. A Farseer makes it really bad news for any tank or MC. But its likely to die pretty fast unless you manage to cast fortune on it.

          Spiders are pretty fast so Idk. they are S7 have a lot of shots and could sometimes shoot rear armor after all.
          In general I would agree you should consider WS or Warwalkers as your main AA. Just like Tau I don't think Eldar need a lot of dedicated AA. They should be able to wreck a few planes with their tons of guided/doomed/twin linked guns.

          Just in case, remember you can ally Tau.

          • abusepuppy says:

            >I can't complain about it beeing a glasscannon considering the Codex its included in.

            I can- AA that isn't alive to do anything isn't good AA. It's not cheap like the Stormtalon and it doesn't serve other roles like the Night Scythe; it's a dedicated vehicle (and especially airplane)-hunter, except that it has the problem of often getting murdered when it enters the field and/or arriving before the enemy's airplanes do.

            A vendetta that flies on first can move minimum distance, keep its front/side arcs facing and shoot an alternate target without feeling too stupid. But if a Crimson Hunter shows up first, it's meat. Moreover, even if it arrives second, if the other guy has an active Quad Gun it is going to get torn to pieces.

            Relying too heavily on Guide/Doom is gonna put you in a bad place, because most lists will have lots of other uses for those spells elsewhere that they rely on to win games. It's certainly a start, but I doubt it's enough on its own- Laser Lock isn't all that reliable, as you need to hit with one of those shots for it to count.

            Eldar are certainly better off than DA in that respect and their flyers are at least acceptable, if not necessarily great, but I think that they're gonna need to ally in AA a lot to cover themselves.

          • teslarod says:

            But it still is the best option to down a flyer. Its BS4/5 instead of BS1 like most other guns and has 4 S8 AP2 shots that reroll to pen.

            It may be hard to keep it alive but if there is a target on the board to shoot at, just shoot, do some damage and use it to distract other flyers afterwards. Cast fortune on it and Jink so it might survive 2 turns and distract other flyers from shooting your ground force while a single lucky Snapshotl can still give other Flyers a bad time. CHs might not have AV 12 but their guns treat AV12 as AV 10.5 taking rerolls into account and are still AP2.
            Far to unrealiable for my taste. But twinlinked stuff without Skyfire and S6/7 is still strictly inferior. 3 Serpents don't equal its output against AV12 flyers. A Crimson Hunters also eats Dragons for breakfast while beeing comparably save agianst them. A fight with any other Flyer most likely is a draw, who shoots first wins. Crimson Hunters can shoot down anything but also can get shot down. Its a fair trade, best output in exchange for worst durability + Farseers for unreliable backup. Beeing able to blow up Dragons and Stormravens is worth something. I don't really consider 2 Crimson Hunters a bad investment considering your ground force is all shooty and anything not dedicated AA can't really afford to shoot a flyer if there are Warwalkers or Waveserpents around.
            Most other armys won't have as much mech on the ground as Eldar will. Even 3 Flyers are not a bad investment for Eldar going all mech. They simply don't share an important weakness of other flyers exept the Dragon. CHs can always pick a target and aren't limited to an 18"-36" and shooting what they see afterwards. Instead they can pick targets in almost 360° angle thanks to vector dancer (you need to move around a bit though, but shooting stuff behind you shouldn't be a problem). If you go 2nd you will not only have one free turn of shooting other flyers. You will also screw any flyers target priority next turn that shoots at you if you fly full distance along the board edge.
            To take at least 2 seems like the bare minimum, 1 is too easy to handle after all. Add in the Autaire (Autarch on Jetbike with Solitaire cloak) and you will be at advantage in airborne fights. I personally don't know what else I would use FA slots for. 2-3 CHs, a Farseer, an Autaire, and as many Warwalkers/Heavy weapon platforms, Serpents, Guardians and Guardian Jetbikes as still fit in (and maybe a Wraithknight to absorb some heavy weapons). I wouldn't take a single Warlock to be honest. There is nothing that needs them since LD8 makes it out of the question to pay 35 points compared to a DA Librarian or Farseer.

            You always have a full turn to get rid of a Quadgun which is really all you need. Its usually not hidden. A few Sniper shots and a Serpent should do the job turn 1.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            >>You always have a full turn to get rid of a Quadgun which is really all you need. Its usually not hidden. A few Sniper shots and a Serpent should do the job turn 1.

            This.

            The Quadgun is a very poor answer to Crimson Hunters, particularly with the amount of tools Eldar have to address it turn 1.

          • SomeCallMeTim says:

            10 BS4 snipershots cause 1.2 wounds.
            5 brightlances cause 1 wound.
            It can be done, but it requires quite a bit of firepower for its cost.

          • teslarod says:

            2 Serpents or some warwalkers if thats what it takes to allow your CH to live another turn it seems okay to me.
            Run the numbers how many shots it takes to kill a Dragon with Brghtlances/Scatterlasers/Serpentshield based shooting and you should see the benefit.

          • _Garnet_ says:

            It's not the cost of the Quad-Gun that you're spending the firepower against, it's the cost of having at least one turn of unimpeded shooting from your Crimson Hunter.

          • abusepuppy says:

            You're also throwing non-insignificant firepower at a target that isn't doing anything BUT stopping your Crimson Hunters. And even with all that, the CH still has to come onto the board second in order for the plan to succeed.

          • teslarod says:

            A Quadguns shooting is scary compared to a Chimera or something like that.

            Its not optimal but the benefit is bigger than the drawback – I get Skyfire guns in return of killing somthing else than optimal first (which isn't all that tough).
            I would argue the benefit is worth it since the book lacks Skyfire and CH are as stated fragile but really deadly.

            Quadguns are also plinking of hullpoints so thinking I would like to get rid of that thing anyway for the sake of my Warwalkers doesn't sound to crazy. It may not be the most scary thing on the board but nevertheless worth killing early (you also could render the guy firing it useless – thats worth more than 50 points if its i.e. a Tau Commander with just one gun)

          • abusepuppy says:

            Uh, Tau don't lack Skyfire- in fact, they are the ONLY book with reasonable access to it. And they will have many, many other units that are as dangerous or more dangerous to most of your army than a Quad Gun, so shooting what is otherwise a low-priority target really does feel like wasted firepower.

            Certainly if you had the option to wave your hand and make it disappear you would, but there are tons of other things in most Tau lists that you'll want to shoot first- Broadsides, Crisis, Sniper Drones, Pathfinders, etc.

          • blacksly says:

            In a Tau list, the Quad Gun is something that you may only shoot at in order to protect the Crimson Hunter. In most other Codices, though, the Quad Gun is a solid firepower unit.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            >>And even with all that, the CH still has to come onto the board second in order for the plan to succeed.

            That's not really true. 1.) Nothing has a 100% chance of killing it. 2.) Also, not all flyers are AA units. Helldrakes, for instance, present 0 threat to Crimson Hunters. The Crimson Hunter is a fantastic answer to the Helldrake.

            If the Quad is the only AA they have with interceptor, and the rest is ground based (because they have anti ground flyers) and avoidable (at least the first turn), then the Crimson Hunter will do quite well.

            Also, as has been stated a million times, you have a variety of tools to delay it at your disposal if such a task proves to be necessary.

          • Hammerdal says:

            Doesn't the Helldrake vector strike? Which is actually a pretty significant threat to AV10?

          • abusepuppy says:

            > Nothing has a 100% chance of killing it

            It turns out that nothing is guaranteed in this world, news at 11. At the end of the day you still bank on what the dice say is most likely to happen.

            >Helldrakes, for instance, present 0 threat to Crimson Hunters.

            Oh come on now, really?

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            >>Oh come on now, really?

            You would have to be playing pretty poorly to ever let a Helldrake get vector strikes on a Crimson Hunter, for reasons that should be obvious. Dice may not be certain, but making incredibly stupid decisions like parking your CH in the middle of the board where he can be vectored is something that never should happen.

            So yes, really. Give me a realistic scenario where the Helldrake threatens a Crimson Hunter.

          • abusepuppy says:

            You want to get rear shots on something that isn't sitting on your board edge. Or you are on the board for two turns before the Heldrake arrives. (Vector Dancer helps case #2 some, but you will still be forced to advance a non-insignificant distance many times.)

            For as much as you seem to hammer on me for using phrases like "zero" or "none" in ignoring unlikely scenarios, you're pretty bad about it yourself.

          • Shadar_Logoth says:

            Also, I don't bank on the dice at all. I react to what they roll. As all good generals should.

          • blacksly says:

            Now, wait, a Quad Gun for 50 points has the firepower of a Rifleman Dread, with BS depending on its shooter. Even leaving aside Skyfire/Interceptor, I do like to remove units with that much firepower. Without a Crimson Hunter to protect it may not be at the very top of my to-kill list, but it's certainly not going to be too far down.

  17. Scott says:

    This is only reinforcing my desire to buy a Nightspinner.

    I'm thinking of fielding this as the core of my list:

    two wave serpents,
    two units of scorpions
    two swooping hawk units
    two units of wraithguard (in the Wave Serpents)
    Spiritseer (I'm assuming this makes wraithguard troops)
    Two or three Wraithlords

    • Krei0s says:

      Don't buy the Night Spinner unless you want to magnetize and use a Fire Prism right out of the box. Instead, buy the Warp Hunter from Forge World. The kit is a Fire Prism/Nightspinner box with the clear plastic components of the Prism Cannon removed. The Warp Hunter is a Nightspinner with AP2, 36" range, and better output against MCs/vehicles. It still has the Torrent secondary fire mode, and it's roughly the same price as a Fire Prism/Nightspinner kit, and is better than both.

  18. Llll says:

    Add shard of Anaris on "Solitaire"…….now he is the TRUE SOLITAIRE

  19. Blah says:

    Agree with it all except three things: a) I use a 3-squad of vypers with holo, scatter and shuiken canon, they always do well, usually murdering whatever they get near. b) the almost useless Banshees work v v well as back field (hide them) support if you decide spam support batteries (at 30 points I want to get to where I take 2 full squads of vibro canon for 180 pts it's a steal – I think 2 squads of vibro means you can cause incredible 4xS10 AP1 murder on one squad / vehicle every go throw in 6 counter charging banshees inc exarch to defend them and u have ur back line well defended) c) warp spiders.. I don't know if you've noticed how good they are yet but they are the best unit in the whole of 40k hands down end of story.. there is NOTHING they can't do. take 2 full squads of 10 no exarch let the 2D6 doubles kill you (ignore it) and watch what happens, they almost always survive they cause insane misery. Do not deep strike them either start them on the board they ALWAYS get there by turn 2

    • sdfsdfsd says:

      Max 3 vibro in one squad and the the strength only increase when more than one hit so top effect is S 9 AP 2, still awesome though!

  20. hempfig says:

    Guardians are very nice but Dire avengers are a lot more survivable though costly.

    13 points a model totals 130 points for 10, add 10 for exarch and 5-20 for weapon upgrade.
    so 160 points seems a lot but for those points you get: 9 dire avengers with 18" range assult 2 weapons
    1 dire avenger exarch with power weapon and shimmershild giving the whole squad a 5++ inv save! and he can throw plasma nades at 8" at BS5 if you're really close!
    And don't forget counter attack so its just that less appealing to charge them considering their initiative make them strike first against most normal troops!
    They also have a 4+ armor save as opposed to the 5+ one guardians have meaning 1/2 survive instead of 1/3.. exarch also have 3+ armor save. Keep some guardians in the back and maybe with a shuriken cannon and wave serpent for attacking but keeping some dire avengers close make both units live a lot longer than just having one or the other in my experience!

    Battelfocus is also that much deadlier with the added range of the dire avengers, you can often punish the enemy fully and run away in situations the guardians must use battlefocus to get in range to fire the same round, imagine what happen to those 5+ armor save guys if you get bad rolls…

  21. hempfig says:

    Wraith units are also awesome, keep at least 5 with D-scythes and a serpent at hand as a awesome base defense, they can't be charged (ap2 flamers, 5xd3 overwatch) and before you think MC's are safe, distort rule auto wound with instant death AP2 when you get a 6 (also auto pen hit on a vehicle)
    If you use the iyanden rules, try 2 wave serpents, one with D-scythes, one with normal wraith weapons, have a spirit seer and a wraithlord/knight in the back, I prefer the lords and move them up the field, they will get there, the wave serpents will support them and the wraithlord is s10 with furious charge and the ghost glaive if the spirit seer manage to cast its spell! Unless the enemy is dark eldar with a lot of poison you have a fist that can break most defenses.

    edit: you can have the spirit seer with the wraith guards too, there is a piece or wargear you should have, the helmet for auto pass lookout sir and it let wraith guard accept duels, 15 points, then there is a item that let you give a hp back to wraithlords and knights on a 3+ for 30 points, with iyanden rules you can also have 5 spirit seers in one hq slot so you can have several with your wraith spear and give them the wargear most needed. I like to have 2 total, one with each of the above items and have one with each wraithguard squad, roll all powers in runes of battle and enjoy! you can get both another chance at giving back HP and a chance of improving their armor save to a 2+ with runes of battle and you want the primaris power anyway and the primaris power (battlefocus to wraith units) cost 2 warp charges so most of the time you only cast that, unless you have two spirit seers ofc ;) but both should be able to cast it, the other things in runes of battle are also generally useful for a front attack unit

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  23. Mike says:

    I've been an eldar player for 25 years now. This codex has made them possibly the best army in 40k in the eyes of my fellow players! I've only lost 1 game in 10 since the new codex arrived!

    Don't dismiss the wraith units. The new Wraithblades are lethal. Ok they may be quite slow but don't be afraid to deploy them As far forward as you can. Go for the axe and shield option for the 4++ save! team a unit of 5 with a Spiritseer for additional buffs and they become a total wreaking ball unit. With the t6 and 4++ they can also take a lot of fire. If you want to get them places fast and add a little protection give them a wave serpent!

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