Summary of 7th Edition Changes – Jink

The changes of Jink deserve their own post because a lot of the really common units of 6th edition have been impacted upon this. First, let’s review the rule changes (and remember we have a summary of this being developed here – the more you guys add to it the more comprehensive this will be and make sure nothing slips through!).

Jink – pg 167

Before any to hit dice are rolled, declare if you are using Jink. Jink provides a 4+ cover save however; the models are forced to Snap Shot (BS1) the following turn. There are two significant changes here.

Quick note as well – you do not need to move to be able to make a Jink save. You can therefore currently take Jink saves if you are immobilised.

Firstly, this mode of jink now applies to all models – not just flyers. This means Bikes, Jetbikes and Skimmers no longer get a free cover save for moving; there is an opportunity cost for doing so. Secondly, you must decided to jink before to hit rolls are made, not before wounding / armour penetration rolls are made. This makes it a lot easier for shooting armies to suppress opposing units but also means lucky shots like single meltaguns against flyers can be a much bigger deal.

Now this impacts each unit differently so we’re going to look at it in general and then focus on some of the most popular units…

Firstly, if a unit is electing to Jink their shooting has been diminished in trade of a better cover save. The key therefore is to maximise this opportunity where the reduced shooting effectiveness is less of a big deal. Getting Jinking units into combat or shooting them at flyers is going to result in… well very similar results. Often when assaulting, you’re not looking to blast everything you have in case the assaulting unit gets left out high and dry and if you’re shooting at flyers, well you’re already shooting at BS1. If you can set up such situations prior to knowing you have to Jink, Jink is a lot less of an opportunity cost.

Jink is a 4+ cover save. There exists other 4+ cover saves – find them and you’re not forced into this predicament. One has to be wary however of terrain effects on units generally with Jink (I.e. Bikers and Skimmers with Dangerous Terrain checks). Units which ignore this (Skilled Rider / Move Through Cover) are fantastic as they can utilise this advantage without suffering from any potential drawbacks. All of these units are fast as well with a minimum 12″ move – this makes getting those cover saves (it’s still only 25%) a lot easier but there are opportunity costs to this as well. Sacrificing board positioning for a 4+ cover save to avoid jinking is sometimes better served by jinking. Be very mindful and remember that these units have this opportunity or advantage – remember it. Being able to have a 4+ cover save in the best possible physical location is a strong advantage – you lose shooting the next turn but positioning is very important.

As an aside, Ignores Cover removes Jink and terrain covers effects – if this is out there, maximise your positioning rather than sacrifice this for a cover save that’s going to get stripped.

There are modifications to Jink saves (Skilled Rider) but a lot less than previously. Turbo-boosting and Flat Out on fast units previously improved that cover save (to 4+) but no longer. There are still upgrade pieces that impact this however such as Disruption Pods, Holo-fields and White Scar Chapter Tactics. Be mindful of these and the impact it has upon the opportunity cost relationship (3+ cover versus 4+) and also remember, as both opponent and foe, which improve all cover saves and which only improve Jink saves. This is also key to understanding the rule – when to Jink and this will impact upon the order of shooting and where firepower goes. You therefore need to have a strong grasp of the rule and implications as both the opponent and controlling player. Even if it’s a strong idea to Jink, Jinking is not always the right answer if it forces an opponent to place more shooting into that unit which might go elsewhere to damage / suppress other parts of the army. Sometimes not Jinking and losing the unit is a better game plan.

Onwards to the popular units!

  1. Heldrakes – what??? 4+ vs 5++ is a different that needs to be considered. Particularly if you’ve got a meltagun pointing up your rear or skyfire coming your way.
  2. Wave Serpents – Wave Serpents are shooting machines so reducing their effective shooting is pretty damn major but they are also really fast scoring units now and when taken as an option for a Troops unit, have the Objective Secured rule. Look for lots of these guys to be doing late contests / objective grabs while still being relatively difficult to down given their cost and firepower level as things currently stand. Also, Holo fields are likely to become more common to bring any Jinking up to a 3+ if they moved the previous turn.
  3. Space Marine Bikes – This is where things have probably been hit the hardest as Bike armies utilised their speed, often terrain ignoring rules and general statline to be better, faster Marines with mobile cover. Given the extent of AP2/3 weaponry, this is huge but now the opportunity cost of cover saves or shooting is most keenly felt here. That being said, Bikes are still a strong Troops unit for Space Marines (or Allies) and remember, if they are White Scars / Black Knights, they are getting a 3+ cover save to be factored into that opportunity cost.
  4. Tau Vehicles – I’ve lumped everything here together though really the Devilfish could be considered separate given it’s potential status as an Objective Secured scoring vehicle (but unlike the Wave Serpent, it doesn’t have the firepower for a slightly cheaper cost). Sensor Spines may become more popular to move into ruins and gain those 4+ saves (3+ with Disruption Pods) but the Skyray didn’t like to move previously anyway (snap shooting a Markerlight? ew) and the Hammerhead should be able to get decent cover and therefore not need to Jink. Both of these options Jinking though reduces their firepower output significantly and is therefore only likely to be seen in extreme cases.
  5. Eldar Jetbikes – This unit probably feels the impact the least. Most Eldar Jetbike units are small squads utilised as objective grabbers. They either stay in reserve or hide. Nothing has really changed here and Jink wasn’t a major component of this strategy. If you’re using larger units or Spears or a Solitaire however; the same issue as with Space Marine Bikes arises but with greater mobility. The biggest impact I imagine here will be on the Solitaire who doesn’t bring his own 5+ cover save which is brought up to a 2+ by Stealth / Shrouded and although cover saves for a single model aren’t hard to get, it does limit some of his swiss army knife appeal.
  6. Dark Eldar Vehicles – Dark Eldar vehicles don’t like snap firing – poison becomes a lot less useful, they don’t have access to twin-linking except through Eldar allies and the majority of their vehicles shoot singular shots. Flickerfields are 10 points a pop and can’t be ignored by Ignores Cover and in combat so you’re going right back to the pros and con weighing of 5th edition – 10 points a pop adds up but are probably really good buys on Ravagers and less so on Raiders. 4+ is still better than 5++ though, same as with a Heldrake.
  7. Night Scythes – They weren’t too fussed about jinking before – they laugh when they roll 6’s anyway and now with an improved cover save, Night Scythes are harder to bring down but easier to force into jinking. Look for these to continue to do well until GW FAQs Tesla doesn’t work when snap shooting…

I like the new Jink concept – it places a decision in the player’s hands and allows them to utilise this rule to force decisions not on themselves but opposing players. Strong use of the rule, the units’ speed and ability to get to places on the board will put pressure on opponents while requiring more thought behind their use (rather than just taking 30 White Scars Bikes and throwing them straight at an opponent).

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152 responses to Summary of 7th Edition Changes – Jink

Which happens first, declaring use of markerlights or declaring use of Jink? Pretty important distinction for Tau players.

I'd say Markerlights given that they are done "before the unit shoots" compared to "before to hit rolls are made".

Well…jinks rule actually says when a unit with any models with the jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack…

When you are shooting at a target that has been hit by marker lights you are making it a target first. The opposong player tjen has to declare if he is using jink or not then you can use the marker lights as they are used before shooting. If you are going to quote the rule kirby quote it correctly.

Having looked at the rule again after Kirby initially noted the distinction, I think he has it right.
You are correct it does say “when the target of a shooting attack…” but it also says “before to hit is rolled.” You could read that as the rule defining both periods as a window for when jink can be declared (as I initially did), that jink must be called when initially targeted and the ‘before rolling’ part is just a reminder of when that is (as you seem to suggest), or that ‘before rolling’ is the only defined timing clause and that the ‘when targeted’ is instead a trigger clause telling you what must happen in order to be allowed to jink (as Kirby interpreted).
The last interpretation has the most precision all around (exact timing with an exact trigger clause), so it seems to be the best way to read the rule.

Both are before shooting… Mm, I would say it doesn’t have a real order.

Tau: shooting at your bikes. Wanna jink?
Bikes: maybe…
Tau: okay, using 2 ml to boost bs.
Bikes: jinking.
Tau: …and my other 2 to ignore cover.

Have you noticed it doesn't specifically say that a unit has to move to get its jink………

Also what if the unit is immobilised?

I'm sorry that you don't like what the rules say, but that doesn't change what they say.

How does Shrouded interacted with the new Jink? Has GW come up with a way to make The Galaxy's Ugliest Land Speeder into a unit worth taking?

at this point the two saves add together. Jink is a 4+ & the darkshroud is still assigning "shrouded" for +2 to your coversave.

I believe that the Darkshroud has Shrouded and gives out Stealth for +1 to your cover save. It's still good and will probably annoy opponents who will either have to use a lot of fire power to bring it down or use some Ignores Cover shots that would probably be better spent against the bikes.

… I was close enough=) Ish and the other two Dark Angels players out there can hopefully forgive me for mixing up which bonus the silly speeder hands out

Except that no Dark Angel player actually fields the damn thing, so most of us don't remember the rules either. Kinda like the Ravenwing "It's, um, got a Blind gun?" Flyer.

I think declaring use of markerlights comes first. Before making any to hit rolls you must declare which weapon you're firing. But you can shoot another weapon first, then the oponent jinks and then you fire the markerlights

It looks like flying monstrous creatures get jink even when gliding. This means that ones with shrouded can happily glide forward with a 2+ cover and get into assault.

this is quite huge indeed, a "cheap" nurgle prince whould be quite nasty, while not suffering much hidrances.

Something worth pointing out is flying monstrous creatures always have the jink rule, meaning they can jink in glide mode. As a result Nurgle daemon princes can have a 2+ cover save in the open in both glide and swoop mode. 😀

If they roll on Divination and get the re-roll saves power, they become insane. Re-rollable 2+ cover, 3+ armor, 5+ invuln (possibly improved by Daemonology and by the Grimoire). That Black Mace Prince might still be alive and kicking (butt).

Can you show where in the rulebook it says this? I keep hearing it, but I've read the psychic section three times now and can't find it.

Right. I keep seeing that chart around, but it's not anywhere in the rulebook, which actually says who gets what. It's all well and good that you have a little checklist, but where is it written that the checklist matters?

But is nowhere in the actual rules. Unless you're claiming that little power card contradicts the BRB? Because as of page 28, you still only get what powers your rulebook says you get.

"The relevant codex or army list entry will detail from which psychic disciplines a Psyker can generate his powers". Chaos codex still doesn't mention Divination.

I play Crimson Slaughter (read: Word Bearers) and am 90% positive that the particular Relic is listed as "Chaos Sorceror's Only"

… Chaos sorcs can take prophet of the voices & become daemons – thus giving nearly free reign for Daemon summoning=)

Don't need it just run a Tzeentch daemon prince with telapathy, if your roll shrouded you have your 2+ re-rollable cover save. 😀

This rule has been a nice buff for Darkshrouds. You don't get one to shoot at things anyway, and now it gets a 2+ Jink Save (Shrouded) and gives out Stealth, making those Black Knights or White Scars 2+ as well. A nice boost for a fragile support unit.

To be honest, it pretty much always had a 2+ since there was no real disadvantage to Turbo-Boosting with it (oh noez, i can't shoot my heavy bolter!). I'm happier with Librarians being able to give out a 6" bubble of Shrouded with Telepathy.

Since we are being honest, I'll admit that I haven't ever actually used a Darkshroud. I never really thought they were worth it before and I'm still on the fence. It doesn't help that it's ugly as sin.

We will have to see how strong the Psyker heavy lists are, but if lists with 20+ WCs per turn become popular, it might be better to go without Psykers altogether rather than spend a bunch of points on a character that will never get a power off.

I would argue that Tau vehicles can mitigate this by using markerlights from other units. There's an opportunity cost in that you can't use those markerlights elsewhere but as with everything you have to judge the individual situation, if you have a scoring devilfish which also happens to be in the perfect place to hit whatever you're trying to take down but also near an objective you can have your cake and eat it by getting the jink save to help hold the objective while also shooting for example.

Absolutely but a very significant portion of the time, markerlights are going to Crisis, Kroot, Broadsides or Riptides really.

"Even if it's a strong idea to Jink, Jinking is not always the right answer if it forces an opponent to place more shooting into that unit which might go elsewhere to damage / suppress other parts of the army. Sometimes not Jinking and losing the unit is a better game plan."

Could you explain this a little bit more? I would have though that sort of situation would be a good example of when you definitely should be jinking, because if you don't jink and lose that unit the rest of your army is getting hit by more firepower that might have otherwise gone into doing more damage to that unit if they had jinked.

if I jink and am a shooting based unit, I am basically not effective – or at least limited – in my next turn. If my opponent identifies this, they may cease shooting said unit & target another, thus spreading the hurt around. It may be better to sacrifice that unit of bikes (whatever) by NOT jinking, therefore loosing more models, but preventing that unit from being temporarily neutered & having another unit similarly neutered in the same turn.

This. Jink kinda brings back suppression as a thing, at least when facing skimmer or bike heavy lists.

Ah fair play, it seems like this is gonna add another nice tactical element to the game.

remember that you can still turboboost and assault the turn after you jink. Since I really don't see anything in the rules that is going to diminish Tau's firm grasp as one of the top codecies remember that even SM bikes charging into Tau are going to be very effective.

Well, nothing dampers a balanced tau force. But gimmick lists are basically dead.

clever handle has the gist of it; easiest way to look at it is when you jink, your opponent has effectively suppressed that unit's shooting. At what point do you want to choose to have that suppression and what impact does that choice have (i.e. more firepower at that unit or another unit).

Out of curiousity- How does jinking affect passengers? Do they have to snap shot as well? What if they disembarked? Can d-scythe wraithguard fire the turn they left a transport that jinked?

I can't see anywhere that Jink is mentioned as having any effect on passengers at all actually, so I don't think it will hamper any embarked units.

I'm afraid this spells the death of Marine Bike armies. Bike Squads are just not efficient enough compared to Tac Squads without the free Jink (crazy, I know). That and the slight nerf to Graviton weapons (not ignoring vehicle cover saves) makes one of the prime reasons to take Bike Troops (getting Relentless gravguns en masse) has been diminished.

I still like the rule though, tbh. It just makes sense. Plus, it dropped the hammer on Serpents a bit, which is always a good thing.

I disagree. T5, relentless, and vastly more mobile obj secured troops are going to be important (especially in maelstrom missions). Getting into assault is also important, and jink doesn’t hamper that. The focus is just likely to shift away from command squad deathstars, since they will be high priority targets and they are too expensive to lose either their damage output or an important defensive layer. Instead, the focus will likely be on msu style bike squads with max weapons, to provide too many targets and minimize damage output loss when needing to jink.

T5 is of absolutely no help against plasma. Relentless is useful for grav guns but plasmaguns on Tacs is just fine. Mobile Objective Secured troops are good until you know, they die. Which they will because you can't have as many since they cost so much.

I think we are likely to see min-sized bike squads as FA choices for sure, but full-blown Bike armies? Not if you want to win. I actually think Bike death stars are going to be fine because they can take Storm Shields to compensate for the Jink nerf.

I agree 100% bike armies are unlikely to see much use anymore but I think a lot of people were moving away from that anyway with three to four bike squads supported by other units (Pods / Rhinos, etc.).

T5 is huge against your normal shooting though. Plasma being shot at you en masse? Okay fine I'm Jinking (3+ if White Scars).

5 bikes cost the same as 5 Tacs and a Rhino, but they are T5, more mobile, and get 2 special weapons. They now also have option to take a 3+ cover save (assuming White Scars CT) which costs them nothing if they were going to Turbo boost anyway. Command Squads can be kitted out to be quite mean in CC and can bounce out whenever they need to because of Hit and Run. They are a great platform for Gravguns because against targets with a low Armour Save they can still use their Boltguns.

Ravenwing are still overpriced, but Darkshrouds and Black Knights both benefit a lot from the new Jink rule. They can also bring Land Speeders as troops with a full bike squad, and a 4+ Jink save combined with the new Vehicle Damage chart makes them significantly more survivable then they were.

You'd be downright stupid to buy a Rhino for only 5 guys, and you are forgeting the cost incurred by buying a Captain/Chapter Master on Bike to unlock them as troops. You could already have a 3+ cover save with Scars if you turbo-boosted, so nothing new here. I can see Bike Command Squads still being a thing thanks to Storm Shields, and even cheap 3-man GG squads, but full on bike armies? I rather doubt it.

I am not arguing in favor of full bike armies, just saying the bikes are still useful as troops. Khan, a Chapter Master, or a Captain on a bike is still a solid HQ choice considering the other options, so I don't consider that a huge cost. Rhinos got better, but I think bikes are still very good. I think it's a stretch to say that bikes are no longer a competitive choice. The tactics might have changed a tiny bit, but they are still dangerous in the hands of a good general.

Maelstrom missions really reward mobility, and given how many of the random objectives are "secure objective X", winning is more about playing the mission than killing the enemy. SM bikers are really good at zipping across the table to claim or contest, and their killing power is less relevant in those missions.

Khan is still solid but Masters/Captains were never good choices on their own, no matter how omgwtfpwn people thought they were (protip: they weren't).

Tactics have not changed "a tiny bit". They lose massively on either their survivability or their firepower, and gained nothing in the assault department to make up for it.

I honestly couldn't care less about Maelstrom missions. Just another example of GW removing the importance of tactical accumen from the game to increase its appeal to the great unwashed masses who would rather play Yathzee than Chess.

Obviously you know everything about this game, so I'm not sure why you bother discussing things with the rest of us.

They "lost" a 5+ cover save that only mattered against AP3 or less weapons if your opponent wasn't one of the many armies that have easy access to Ignores Cover. In exchange they can choose to take a 4+ save if they really think it will help in exchange for loosing a turn of shooting. That doesn't fit my definition of a massive change.

Just an observation: Very few things make you sound more like an condescending prick than saying "Protip".

I have an opinion and I defend it vigorously. Sorry if that ruffles your feathers.

White Scars (the army you should have been using for a Bike army) lost a free 4+ cover all the time. Aside from Tau, how many armies have access to Ignores Cover that matters? Serpent Shields may ignore cover but they are AP – so it doesn't matter. I guess Heldrakes matter but then you really should have had significant air support to down them if you were going to bother with bike armies in the first place.

If it's not a massive change, I envy your plasma-light gaming environment…

Thanks for the protip about protips.

I woudl say the other way around- Khan, other than granting Scout, is kind of a piece of shit with a terrible warlord trait. I would much rather have a solid combat character or even just a chump that came in 50pts cheaper than Khan's "fear the might of A POWER SWORD" ass.

Khan granting scout is exactly why I think he is still solid. Captains and Masters on bikes aren't really solid combat characters, not when you consider how expensive they are. A chump (I'm guessing you mean just a captain on bike) woudl actually be only 40 pts cheaper than Khan, so the question is, how much do you figure Scout is worth, per model? I think at least 1 point per model is fair, and usualy my armies, even at 1500 pts, have at least 35-40 models that get to make use of it. Very good deal as far as I'm concerned.

As you pointed out, the main threat to a marine’s armor is plasma. Tau ignored the cover usually anyway, so no change there. And so you lose a 4+ save for the option of 3+ (that still has nominal shooting amd can still assault, unlike turbo) when you need it, even if the other guy goes first (often the greatest threat to a fast moving bike force).

I imagine you also think poorly of sternguard, being even more expensive than a bike, never having the option for obj secured, and never having the option to think of jinking.

Tau wasn't the only army in the game though, so it does matter. For you first turn, there was no excuse to be out of cover if you were going second.

I'm actually contemplating using Sternguards as the core of my force from now on, with a libby as HQ. So you imagined wrong.

>> For you first turn, there was no excuse to be out of cover if you were going second.

unless there isn't enough terrain available…

For an entire bike force, getting every model into/behind terrain wasn’t a given. Particularly if the other player had drop pods. Plus, playing aggresively and getting seized on happens.

So what makes a less mobile, more expensive, lower toughness body without an optional 3+ cover save better, precisely? As you initially claimed, without that extra defensive layer, bikes are just too expensive.

That magic little item called Special Issue Ammo. That and not needing a 110 pts-base HQ of fail.

You really have to wonder why Space Marines wouldn't pass around the goodies to veterans on bikes and terminator armour. Also why they wouldn't have special issue ammo for heavy bolters.

Aren't storm bolters the same caliber as normal bolters? Besides, it seems like if they can get around traveling through space at FTL speeds, making different sizes of ammo should be a fairly simple problem to overcome.

Likely its for balance issues, but then, it doesn't seem like it would be that complicated to just adjust the cost of SIA-equipped models to compensate.

You're not pink already? You've been lying to the community this whole time?! I'm starting a hashtag in protest…

Everyone has to take an hq anyway, and unless taking a special character, you are prolly taking a capt anyway (cause lets face it, the rest are all supremely lackluster). So really it is only a 20pt cost to make them troops. If you are taking a special guy (who isn’t Khan), well ye. Surprise surprise, the special snowflake and his rules that aren’t optimized for a bike list would do poorly with a bike list? Imagine that.

Killing power is nice and all, but it isn’t necessarily what wins games. Durability is important (which stern have less of), and mobility is still king (which they completely lack). Stern are great and all, but good luck spamming them.

If you really think Captains were the default non-special char HQ for SM, then I have to really wonder if we are talking on the same level my friend.

Sternguards are less durable to bolters but they are no more vulnerable to plasma than bikes are. As for mobility, as long as you have it elsewhere in your list (like you know, bikes in the FA slot), having slow Sternguards isn't and issue.

Mobility w/o objective secured is far less useful. And there are far more bolters than plasma out there. So it is a significant issue.

What other option do you think exists that is so far ahead? MotF is only useful if iron hands and even then, is basically a gimmick list. Chaplains are just sad. Like, depressingly so. Which leaves librarians. While a reasonable option, they aren’t auto picks, largely because they don’t have divination. And the disciplines they do have, while potentially good, aren’t exactly reliable. And hey, most librarians get upgraded to lvl2 anyway, so you are right at the same points level as the capt.

And is there a particular reason you’re so condescending? Seriously. I enjoy discussions. Hashing out opinions and theories is fun for me. But acting like your opinion, that hasn’t any backing in any games yet, is infinitely unassailable while anything challenging it is drek is exhausting.

I won't argue that having highly mobile Objetive Secure aren't a nice boon. I jsut don't think the cost is warranted here. And the fact that bolters are more numerous than plasma doesn't matter as much when you consider how massively less effective they are at killing Marines than plasma is. So its not nearly as significant as you think.

MotF works fine in a IF list with beamer attached to Devs or las centurions, but Librarians is what I was thinking of. The lack of Divinitation merely takes them from "by far the superior option" to simply "the superior option". And a lvl 2 libby is way way more useful than a Captain is, so while they cost the same, they don't offer the same bang for the buck.

My opinion may not be based on hundreds of solid game experiences, but guess what? Neither is you guys'…

If you don't like my tone, go back and read some of your own replies. I'm happy to keep it civil, but when you start making snide little comments, I will push back.

Are you referring to how I brought up sternguard? Cause that was a genuine question based on how you initially evaulated bike troops (too expensive for their durability). Compared to just about every other of your responses where you talk down to people, calling them stupid or unwashed masses. That isn’t what most call civil behavior.

And a lvl2 libby really isn’t that great an option. If you don’t roll a good power, it is wasted points. It has no invuln, nor an option to get one or to get a better armor save. It is worse in hth, unless you go bio and get lucky, and then you only match a capt in most situations. I guess you could go for a witchfire, but on the whole, that is a lot of hoops to jump through for marginal shooting. A capt, on the other hand, provides consistency and can prove an effective damage sponge.

Well I misread your tone then. It seemed to me like you were throwing a backhanded slap with that Sternguard comment.

Who did I call stupid? I said one would be stupid to buy a Rhino for a 5 man squad. That's not the same thing as calling someone stupid straight up. And my great unwashed masses comment was not aimed at anyone here; I am assuming that everyone reading the articles here are indeed interested in competitive gaming, not playing Yathzee, so why would you take offense?

A lvl 2 libby isn't that great of an option compared to many other HQs in the game as a whole, but when compared to the other options within the SM book, he is the shiniest of our turds. The points about armour saves or hth are irrelevant because you shouldn't want him in CC anyways. You should always roll on Telepathy, and there are some great powers in there.

I wasn’t offended. Just found your tone in this thread exhausting. And it doesn’t really matter if demeaning comments are directed at me or not. They are still uncivil and add to the condescending persona that anyone who disagrees with you is beneath you. Compare this whole thread to your replies to Kirby below, though. Perfectly civil disagreement. Kinda why I asked what the deal was.

As for libbies: my personal experience with them has usually been lackluster. They fail to get a power off when I needed it. They blow their own brains out and give up vps on situations where the enemy wasn’t really able to kill them. Sure, sometimes they are spectacular. But it isn’t reliable. You know exactly what to expect out of a capt. And I am a bit perplexed why you are so adamant about keeping them out of cc. Sure, they die to most special characters if you let them. But they absolutely devour any kind of troops that aren’t MCs or dedicated cc specialists. And most armies have a lot more of those soft troops than the other, so having a guy being able to clear out gunlines in handy.

Well like I said, I just push back if I feel disrespected. I never feel that way with Kirby, hence the different tone.

I think your opinion of libbies may be coloured by your bad experiences with them. Mine has been fairly reliable with his powers, and died from Perils only once or twice. Though I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a stellar performer (and thus, I never fill out my second HQ slot with another one… or any other HQ for that matter), he edges out Captains by virtue of sheer cheapness. And I am adamant about keeping them out of combat because, as you pointed out earlier, they are extremely squishy, what with only 2 wounds and no invul or 2+ save. Nothing sucks more than losing a game by 1 points due to losing your Warlord.

I'm sorry you felt that I disrespected you in my responses, that was not my intention. I don't remember having negative interactions with you before, so if I apologize if I offended you in the past as well.

In the posts following our exchange you have articulated your points more clearly and, I can respect your opinion even if I disagree with it. However, your responses to me were rude and dismissive. Calling a Chapter Master a nooby mistake isn't a solid argument, neither is calling my example stupid. As I said above, if I brought this on myself in some way, I apologize. If not, perhaps I caught you on a bad day.

Edit: I run half Tacs and half bikes, and yes I do use a Chapter Master on a Bike as an ally to roll with my Black Knights. He also lets me take an Honour Guard to go with Azrael. I'm not going to win any tournaments, but I do alright.

Well it may have been a bad day indeed. Been under a lot of stress lately so I may be a bit more prickly than usual. My choice of words to explain my point of view may have been ill-advised, and I apologise for that. I hope no hard feelings will be harboured.

I don't recall saying that. If you are going to use a Captain anyway, you best get him stuck in or else he will really be wasted points.

Ah, so confusion on both sides. See, I thought based on how you dismissed capts as not being good in melee meant you thought getting them into cc was a bad idea, which got mixed up with the comparisons of libbies.

Well to add clarity to my opinion: it's not that I thinking Captains/Masters aren't good in combat; it's that they aren't good enough for how much they cost.

But as White Scars have the ability to jump into terrain any time they please, I don't think they are as bad off as you make it sound. Getting 3+ cover when choosing to Jink is also amazing, and chances are you can go for an assault (or turbo-boost) after doing so anyways, so it doesn't really affect you all that much.

Wave Serpents essentially break even on the Jink changes. Yes, no more permanent 4+, but on the other hand, you can still get behind terrain for a 4+ or 3+ and even in the open or before your first turn you can go for a 4+ if you need it.

Thinking you will always have terrain to jump into is magic thinking. You could already get a 3+ cover from turbo-boosting, so not really a win there I'm adraid.

I wouldn't be as optimistic about the change for Serpents. I would agree that its nowhere near as bad for them as it is for Bikes, though.

Turbo-boosting can't be done after the fact, though- you commit to it on your turn, then they get to choose who/what to shoot on theirs. The new Jink allows you to selectively respond to their shooting with defensive efforts.

With 12" move and 12" turbo, finding terrain should not be at all hard if there's any on the table, all the more so because it doesn't even slow them down to go into it. If White Scars can't find a cover save, no one can.

I will give you your first point, but still, if you really felt you were going to need that 3+ cover, you could get it, same as now.

If we're just talking about finding terrain period, then yes, Scars can do it easily. Finding terrain AND maintaining effective shots on target? Consistently? That's what I referred to as magic thinking. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

Who was playing them as ignoring cover saves? Cheating bastards!

Bikes are still a very strong option IMO. Not as good as before but their durability has increased when using their Jink. In the end their firepower is better, durability is better (T5) [cover is the exact same if they aren't Jinking], they are mobile and better in combat with HoW (and HnR if they are Scars).

I'll take that for a nominal price increase.

RAW, they didn't allow for cover saves. RAI was a matter of much discussion.

The price is not nominal though. It's 50% higher base than a Tac Marine, and that's not factoring in the cost of the Captain that unlocks them.

I'm sure we will continue to see bikes, but I wouldn't count on bike Troops remaining very popular.

We'll see I guess – I imagine they will stay popular as Troops but not so consistently (again not four or five squads; more like two or three). I'll at least be trying it out so you'll have a response in a months time ;P.

This isn't strictly relevant to this post, so apologies for the diversion, but I think I've found something that makes allying even less restrictive if you do it by the book. I can't find anything that says multiple different Combined Arms Detachments (I.e. normal FOC) have to share the same Faction as your Primary Detachment (looking pages 116-122).

Under "Restrictions" for a CA Detachment, it says "All units chosen must have the same faction (or have no faction)", but that seems to be restricting only that detachment to having units from just 1 faction. Nowhere does it say that all CA Detachments must have the same faction. It's not a massive thing, especially with how much everything has been opened up this edition, but it does give a bit of extra flexibility to allies, since it means you could have a normal FOC of GK and another normal FOC of IG, for example. It stops you having to fiddle it to get 3 Allied Detachments if you want 3 FA/EL/HS from your allies.

Can anyone else see any flaws in my reasoning there? I know this sort of thing probably won't be allowed in tournaments anyway, but it would be useful for freeing slots up in more casual games so I just wanted to see what other peoples opinions on it were.

I see many wave serpent armies potentially taking a skyshield, sitting 4+ guys on it and maybe a couple behind the legs if they went for everything in a wave serpent for a 4+ invul upgradable to 3+ cover if they really need it (torrent fire time) when using holo fields and 25% blockage. Wait til last turn or maybe turn 4, boost off with what's alive, move disembarked infantry onto home objectives.

I also see a few armies making use of the dual height stands so the rear wave serpent has good LOS.

Sadly there are few other skimmers that care as much about the jink downgrade.

just dark eldar – who were already hurt & were buying flickerfields for the 5++ ANYWAYS. This jink is an improvement for flyers & honestly, I just skimmed it…. do FMC gain coversaves for being "in cover" when flying? If so, they really don't care either….

An FAQ is seriously needed for 40K atm, and GW seems to be taking their time with it.

Amongst the issues I've seen are Ahriman's Staff doing nothing, Tzeentch Heralds and Horrors in the same unit not being able to use all their powers (since a power can only be manifested once per UNIT), and Kantor's Hold the Line for Sternguard doing nothing since all units are scoring…

Not sure if it was mentioned, but it's kinda huge so I assume not:

'When a unit with ANY MODELS with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink… If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next movement phase, but they may only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn'.

So if you have one model, it transfers? Because Bikerbosses giving Orks a 4+ cover save in exchange for -1 BS is pretty huge.

The Bikerboss puts up a splendid display of bikemanship, popping wheelies and what-nots, completely throwing off the aim of his amazed opponents.

Or drives around like a maniac, covering the area in exhaust clouds.
Forge the narrative.

"If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule…"

Seems like models that don't have Jink, don't benefit from Jink.

Never mind, I see it. I was reading it wrongly (as in 'all models in a UNIT WITH THE JINK special rule', rather than 'all models with the Jink special rule in a unit'.

can you only use jink in your opponent's shooting phase? I.e. can I choose to jink as (a) response to interceptor? (b) response to overwatch?

Good question. GW seems to have thought ahead on that one, as jink says a unit may opt to jink whenever the target of a shooting attack, so interceptor and overwatch are covered, as are witchfires (which are clearly defined as a shooting attack).

I play ravenwing. These jink changes made me sad. We can only take a single psyker too, so no way we can take invisibility or shrouding. I don’t feel like we were an OP army and now I feel like it’s going to be even harder to get one of those rare ravenwing victories. I can’t ever remember DA being the strong marine book

Dark Angels are in no way limited to a single Librarian. Where in the world did you get that idea?

That's not quite the same thing as "[w]e can only take a single pskyer[.]" Point budgets limit every units availability, but in the typical 1750-2000 point range you can easily squeeze in two librarians.

but then he can't do ravenwing since he's lost the ability to use those bikes as troops.

And in single detachment play? Sam is a mandatory choice for ravenwing, the only other option being Azrael who obviously is not in the ravenwing so breaks the list. Do you have to work hard at being a condescending, ill informed prick or does it come to you naturally?

Single Detachment play is very much not what this edition intends.

While I have my problems with this rule set, bitching about how hard done you are by a rules change that IS NOT IN THE RULES is rather foolish.

You can take extra CADs at any time. You just need to fill the HQ and two troops.

And if all else fails, play Unbound.

Aaaad hoomineeeeeem

Playing with a single detachment isn’t playing by the rulebook, so if you’re restricting to one single Combined Arms detachment, you can make the next step of allowing a Librarian to pick his powers or whatever. Can’t complain about the rules if you don’t follow them.

I'm often condescending. I am not often —but am occasionally— a prick. I am never ill-informed.

The Dark Angels have the same options for fielding the units in their codex as every other army in the game. If you chose to artificially limit yourself to only those characters/units described as canonically part of the Second Company that's fine. I like fluffy armies. But that's a self imposed limitation, not the fault of Seventh Edition's rules.

Also, canonically, all of the Dark Angels' psykers are part of the Librarium, none of them are part of the Second Company. They join the Ravenwing on the battlefield when they (or their commanders) need them to. Likewise, as Supreme Grand Master of the gorram First Legion, Azrael is not in the Second Company but no one short of the Emperor Himself is going to stop him from taking to the field with them if he wants.

You want a psyker in your Ravenwing table-top ar,y? Then you are no longer playing a purely Second Company force. So stop bitching about it. A 2,000 point army that contains Sammael, two Librarians, a pair of Scout Squads and drops the rest of its points on Ravenwing Attack Squads, Black Knights, and a Dark Shroud is still going to be seen by any reasonable person as a "Ravenwing army."

If you want to be 100% Second Company only, you CAN do it. The rules don't stop you, but they don't coddle you either. If you go for the combined arms force that the fluff and the rules encourage, you'll find you have a better balanced force.