Space Wolves – Stromfang / Stormwolf (Pictures and Rumors)

We're keeping pace with the rumors but with Games Workshop's new “stuff everything down their throats fast” philosophy it's hard to keep up when I'm not on the Internet everyday… Summaries are going up here in the forums though. More pics / info after break.

Stormwolf – Fast Attack – Points = Land Raider minus 35
BS4 – F12 S12 R12 HP3 – Vehicle (Flyer, Hover, Transport)

Wargear:
Twin-linked helfrost cannon
Twin-linked lascannon
Two twin-linked heavy bolters – May be replaced with a Skyhammer launcher for free, or two twin-linked multi-meltas for 20pts
Ceramite Plating

Special Rules:
Assault Vehicle
Power of the Machine Spirit

Transport:
Transport Capacity – sixteen models
Fire Points – none
Access Points – One ramp at the front of the hull

Stormfang Gunship – Heavy Support – Points = Land Raider minus 30
BS4 – F12 S12 R12 HP3 – Vehicle (Flyer, Hover Transport)

Wargear:
Helfrost destructor
Two twin-linked heavy bolters – May be replaced with a Skyhammer launcher for free, or two twin-linked multi-meltas for 20 pts
Two Stormstrike missiles – May be replaced with a twin-linked lascannon for 15 pts
Ceramite Plating

Special Rules:
Power of the Machine Spirit

Transport:
Transport Capacity – six models
Fire Points – none
Access Points – One at rear of the hull

Helfrost cannon
dispersed – R24″ S6 AP3 Heavy 1, Helfrost, Blast
focussed – R24″ S8 AP1 Heavy 1, Helfrost

Helfrost destructor
dispersed – R24″ S6 AP3 Heavy 1, Helfrost, Large Blast
focussed – R24″ S8 AP1 Heavy 1, Helfrost, Lance

Helfrost – If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds from this weapon, it must pass a separate Strength test for each wound suffered or be removed from play

 

Grey Hunters are not cheaper, they are still 15/model.

They come with Bolter, Bolt Pistol, grenades, ATSKNF, Counter Attack and Acute Senses.

They can have one model upgraded to a Wolf Guard, for +10 points, who gets +1Ld/attack and access to wargear.  (Same as veteran sergeants, except that if not taken, there isn't a “character” in the unit the way normal sergeants are).

They can take 1 special weapon, or 2 at 10 man.  They are limited only to special weapons and not heavy as per normal.  They pay the same points as space marines now, not a discount and not a free one at 10.

They can also take plasma pistols at 1 per 5 in addition to special weapons.

They can swap their bolter for a chainsword at no cost, on a model-by-model basis, and it specifies that it must also be represented on the model.

Wolf banners are still in, but aren't as good and cost 15 points not 10.

Bloodclaws are 13 points per model, minimum 5 up to 20.  Similar as above for upgrades.  Unlike what's in stormclaw, if you upgrade a Bloodclaw to a Wolf Guard he gets +1 WS and BS (to take him to 4/4).  They have rage now instead of their former +d3 attacks on the charge.

Wolf Guard terminators are now an entry, as are Wolf Guard non terminators, so no mixing and matching.  No more pack leader separating of Wolf Guard to join other squads.  Just upgrades in unit.

While I'm sure that a lot of people will be flipping over the loss of certain iconic character elements for space wolves, the new stuff in the book isn't just “Wolf This” “Wolf That” and they still remain sufficiently divergent from normal marines, with points costs that are now in line with them.  Though I won't deny that they definitely were toned down in a lot of ways (that they weren't really overpowered in by any real means) they have been compensated for by gaining access to things like space marine AA tanks, a new flyer and some really nifty formations.

Logan Grimnar and Bjorn are Lords of War.

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186 Responses to “Space Wolves – Stromfang / Stormwolf (Pictures and Rumors)”

  1. Desc440 says:

    That looks so bad lol. Great rules though so will still sell like hotcakes.

    I will probably just use a Storm Raven with different armament to represent this.

    • Desc440 says:

      Also, I don't see many people going for the Stormfang over the Stormwolf. Aside from trading the TL helfrost cannon for a more powerful helfrost destructor, it's worst in every way, not the least of which is the fact that it's a Heavy Support rather than Fast Attack. Something tells me Long Fangs will still be a hallmark unit of the SW.

      • Shatterclaw says:

        Just played in game where the other guy had grey knights and a imp Knight.

        A stromfang would have been a nice hammer to crack that nut
        with. With lance you just need 4.. ap 1 means it will most likely take d3
        hull points.

        To that end, it has the possiblity of popping other tanks or
        annoying fighters.

        • Desc440 says:

          7% chance to cause D3 HP loss. Not exactly stellar odds, and just not worth it imo.

        • Jasonc says:

          Lol.

          You need a 5 to pen.

          Then you need to get through the 4++ (or 3++).

          Then you need a 5+.

          So like… a 5% chance at 4++ including rolling to hit? Consider it cracked lol.

    • Albert says:

      Same as the Storm Raven, it has a large transport capacity but using it is putting to many eggs in one basket. And if its primary role is to provide AA for the army, probably a Stalker or two is a better choice.

      We'll have to see what else there is in the codex

      • Desc440 says:

        I've not been any kind of impressed by Stalkers, tbh. Plus, if they are available at all, they will likely be HS, which will likely be still the dominion of Long Fangs. FA slots are more readily available, generaly speaking. So I'm confident the SW will become the de-facto AA unit for the Wolves unless Fangs get massively cheaper Flakk missiles for their launchers.

    • Nody says:

      Agree on looks; take Shoebox (easy to cast in resin); glue on generic flight parts from other existing models and call it a day…

    • clever handle says:

      looks like half a cestus assault ram from FW c/w a bunch of wolf-talismans. I don't really get the Helfrost rule as almost anything with multi-wounds that isn't already going to be instant-death'd by the S6+ shot is going to be S5+ (ok, nobs and tyranid warriors maybe?) so has a slim to nil chance of failing the ID effect.

      • Desc440 says:

        I think its mostly just a tack-on to the weapon's profile for fluff. Not a rule but not something to really try to take advantage of, for the reason you mentioned.

      • abusepuppy says:

        Well, it won't usually work, but a 15% chance to autokill any character that takes a wound from it is nothing to sneeze at- everyone rolls 6s sometimes. It also bypasses Eternal Warrior and other such defenses. All in all it may not be particularly great, but it's a rule with some uses, at least.

    • I actually think it looks cooler than the Storm Raven.

      At least this one makes no pretence of being anything other than a flying brick. The Storm Raven looks like it’s insecure in with its lunch box shape, so it tacked on a bunch of dinky fins to feel better about itself.

  2. Jason says:

    It doesn't sound too bad.

  3. Kirby says:

    I'm disappointed with the Wolf Guard change if true. That added a lot of character and fun units though they often weren't used as they became inefficient anyway.

    • abusepuppy says:

      If they turn into upgrade characters and are still available as their own, individual squad I don't see it being a big deal- although making the Terminator version a separate unit feels pretty weak to me.

      • Quinn says:

        If it is 25 pts for a base WG as a Pack leader that is a big jump from 18pts now. Doesn't that seem excessive? Going off the +10 pts for one in that rumor.

        • abusepuppy says:

          Well, 18pts is cheaper than any other faction's sergeant (not counting "free" ones), so that would not be surprising to see it increased.

          Also, I would be surprised if GH stay 15pts and lose ubergrit, as that would make them extremely crappy

  4. Jason says:

    The loss of uber grit is annoying though. I'm not sure Grey Hunters would be worth 15 points without it.

    • clever handle says:

      well, you're paying 1 point more for counter attack & acute senses (did that USR change in 7th? it was kind of useless if you couldn''t outflank)

      • Desc440 says:

        There's really no justification for Counterattack/Acute senses costing 1 pt when vanilla marines get their own Chapter Tactic for free. Especially since Acute Senses is essentialy useless.

        • clever handle says:

          I'd suggest there is. But I play Chaos so 1 pt for chapter + ATSKNF is a joke. 2pts is still a bit light…

        • Avatar says:

          You don't think an extra attack when you get charged is worth 1 point a model? You have seen how GW prices units with more than one melee attack, right?

          • Desc440 says:

            They don't have an extra attack anymore dude. That's the issue. 15 pts would be fine if they still had BP, CCW and bolter. They don't.

          • Avatar says:

            Hey, DA pay 14 points for 1 attack base, no counterattack, no two-weapons option, and -stubborn-. Count yer blessings…

          • Alastores says:

            Thats' kind of the point.

            When you have to look at Dark Angels Tacs and Chaos Space Marines to make the points look reasonable…..

          • Desc440 says:

            Bingo

          • Nomeny says:

            Lately in 7th, they had A1, +1 for having a CCW and Pistol, and +1 for Counter-Attack. So that's 3x what Tactical Marines get. Without the CCW they only get 2x what Tactical Marines get.

          • Alastores says:

            Only in terms of attacks.

            They also don't get feel no pain, or hit and run, or rerolling bolter shots, or whatever raven guard get.

        • CoffeeGrunt says:

          I can guarantee you there'll be some special character with a fixed Outflank-oriented Warlord Trait that'll make use of it.

    • abusepuppy says:

      If they're still 15pts with just CA/AS and no ubergrit, they will be pretty terrible. MEQs have gone down in price and being more expensive than Tacticals with worse abilities (Combat Squads and Chapter Tactics vs. Counter-Attack and Acute Senses? Even Raven Guard is better than that) is not exactly exciting.

      • Shadar_Logoth says:

        As much as I love to disagree with you I…have to agree with you here. They use to be one of the leanest troop selections in the game. If all the rumors are true this seems like way to big of a pendulum swing. If they just kept their CCW then 15 points would be about right, I guess. Or, if Acute Senses was particularly relevant for what they do. Maybe they get a Warlord that gives Outflank to all GH or something?

  5. Scuzgob says:

    oh good another flying box

    • Suijin says:

      Flying brick, it is the Imperium style.

      • Scuzgob says:

        tis a poor thing when the flyers that look the most like real flyers are the Ork planes.

        • clever handle says:

          the (d)eldar flyers look like jets. The ork planes look like good 'ol prop planes. The imperiums all look aerodynamic like bricks.

        • CoffeeGrunt says:

          I like the Tau's Stealth Bomber-esque approach, and the Eldar vehicles look pretty.

          There's a reason I'm going 3rd party for my Guard Fliers, though.

          • Desc440 says:

            You don't like the look of the Valk? I think it's a great-looking flyer, personaly.

          • Scuzgob says:

            its a thing that happens in every sci-fi setting ever. all the aliens get really cool and different designs, but humans? PUT ENGINES AND GUNS ON DIS BOX

          • Gandasch says:

            If you ignore the weapons, this thing looks like a flying garbage truck. It pains me to say this, but the Wolfjet is even uglier than the Taurox.

          • Scuzgob says:

            at least you can do conversion stuff with the taurox. replacing its dinky tread units with wheels improves the taurox dramatically.
            cant say i see the same happening for the stormwoof

  6. lords2001 says:

    I like it. It looks effective, powerful and direct. Very space wolf.

  7. Papadocgr says:

    Looks like a wolven head!

  8. thesearemywickedwords says:

    All I wanted was access to the Storm Raven and Storm Talon – very Norse type names anyway, will just have to paint them up for Storm Wing formation now :(

  9. Albert says:

    Looks like the StormWolf has the TL hell cannon on top of the cockpit, so that reduces even more the 24" range when shooting forward. At least is a 360º turret.

  10. CKuno says:

    "with Games Workshop's new 'stuff everything down their throats fast' philosophy"

    Honestly, I don't see how increasing their release schedule is akin to stuffing everything down our throats. I'm just confused as to why so many people are acting like this is some kind of detrimental thing that GW is doing TO us. No one acts like PP is stuffing things down our throat with their constant release schedule, so why does GW get slapped with that?

    As for the flyer, I like it. I was a fan of the Caestus Assault Ram, and this is pretty much that cut in half aesthetic wise, so it'll be cool to see some of them on the table.

    • Scuzgob says:

      GW are the biggest company so theyre automatically the bad guys

    • Nomeny says:

      Personally I'm loving the avalanche of stuff, even if I can't buy it all!

    • clever handle says:

      it'll also be safer to use than the cestus. Putting a nearly 2kg pike of resin on a flight stand above my painted models always made me nervous… all it takes is one average hobbyist bumping into the table to result in a huge amount of breakage.

    • Avatar says:

      The issue here is pretty much just one for the tournament players. It's great if you're just interested in "hey, can I get an update for my army?"

      But if you're playing in a lot of tournaments, the "new hotness" is changing pretty quickly, with even the fundamental rules underneath everything having had an edition shift lately too. Before, you could pick up a competitive tournament army and a year later, there would only be one or two other army updates that would have come out, mostly not affecting you at all unless one of those two new armies was a top-tier army, and even then you didn't need to modify your base list much.

      Nowadays, with new stuff dropping all the time, who the hell knows WHAT you need to bring? If the doors are thrown wide open, you need a list that can deal with a Warhound titan or 300 fearless ork boyz in a single mega-unit, and every new dataslate or formation can end up in a dozen different army builds, either handing out special rules or providing hard counters to yours (think of the way the Inq codex basically shut down the White Scars' scouting).

      On top of that, because the TOs have mostly reached the opinion that "take anything you like" is a recipe for disaster, but not reached anything even resembling a consensus of where to go next, it's hard to generalize about what's even eligible for most tourneys at the moment. How much cheese can you pack in before it becomes too cheesy to get in the door?

      Everyone's waiting for the ripples to die down, but GW just keeps chucking more rocks into the water. At least Orks aren't going to affect the meta too much (don't expect to see their formations showing up in other armies and the army itself is still way too random for tourney-player tastes). But a resurgent SW – or even a crappy SW with one good unit in a formation – could mix things up yet again. And then two months down the road it might happen again…

      This is a bad thing if your tourney strategy is "win because I've got the best army".

      • Shadar_Logoth says:

        All of what you said makes the tournament scene better, not worse, IMHO.

        Tournaments should be unpredictable, and not predicated on the guy who takes the obviously best stuff times 18.

    • Kirby says:

      Put it this way – I cannot keep up with GW's releases atm. Every time I log on during a rumor cycle (which seems to be every other week currently) I'm being floored with relatively accurate information.

      There are advantages to both systems (trickle releases; big releases all at once) but GW seems to be doing trickle releases of big releases rather than say PP releasing an entire book over a 6 month period. So PP gives you what 20-25 products over that 6 month period plus the few that were delayed from the previous book or the few that have snuck in from the next book so let's 35. You can honestly say each codex entry for GW has close to 20 options and it feels like they are putting these out every month so it's more to keep up with.

      Now to be fair it's not that hard to keep up with and I don't think GW has been releasing all their little mini-dexes and dataslates currently either but when you want / need to know everything that's going on and are just getting in enough playtime with / against the codex that was dropped before last, it's frustrating because you don't feel on top of things and then it's hard to write logical things (because I've been doing so much writing lately :)).

  11. Tim W says:

    GW's gone full retard on this one.

  12. Etna's Vassal says:

    Am I the only one who remembers how damn unfluffy this is? Wolves fight with their feet on the ground, unless they would trust one of these things to a Blood Claw. Or are they going to retcon that too?

    • Desc440 says:

      To tell you the truth, I kinda expected that GW would give them a flyer regardless, but I was also sure they were going to give it a transport capacity as an excuse for its inclusion in the Codex.

      I'm kinda perplexed as to why the Wolves would have their own flyer, though. Storm Raven with Wolfstrike missiles seems like it would have made sense. What is the rationale behind the wolf-only flyer?

      • clever handle says:

        same reason the dark angels have their own shit
        and the blood angels have fast vehicles.

        Because GW needs to do whatever they can to justify (4) separate books for loyalist marines, and usually that's going to mean ridiculous shit like T-wolves, or silly shit like the DJ-skimmer…

      • Kirby says:

        Wolfraven come on man. Stormraven phaw!

    • Quinn says:

      Depends on the fluff, that was one sentence in 3rd Edition that somehow became 'Wolves don't fly'..which is a bit ridiculous and has been countered in a lot of various SW novels. I don't think that constitutes 'Retconned'.

    • Ish says:

      >>> “Am I the only one who remembers how damn unfluffy this is? Wolves fight with their feet on the ground[...]” <<<

      They were called the Sky Warriors of Fenris for decades before this single sentence entered the lore. They had Thunderhawks, Land Speeders, Battle Barges, Strike Cruisers, and all the attendant smaller spacecraft since the days of Epic and/or Battlefleet Gothic. Hell, the Orinthopter in the First Book of the Astronomicon had Space Wolf markings, if memory serves….

      • Nomeny says:

        Also, notably, in the Emperor's Gift they teleport Bjorn, a Dreadnought, onto the bridge of an Inquisitional ship.

    • Casey says:

      Unfluffy???? How do you suggest space wolves fight??? Stay on Fenris and wait for traitors,heretics, and aliens come to them. Saying that a space marine force does not fly is just plain dumb.

  13. Hakon says:

    I'm leaving the hobby if grey hunters don't get the option to have bolters AND close combat weapons, i don't mind paying for it, but grey hunters are not grey hunters without it…… either that or i will just field them as a chaos army.

    • Scuzgob says:

      counts-as Space Wolves using the Chaos Marine rules? How times have changed!

    • clever handle says:

      see yah! if thats' all it takes…

    • Quinn says:

      I have a big problem with this also, especially since the majority of the models in a Wolfpack box are actually designed to be Boltgun/Chain or BP/Chain. I know I have assembled and painted 50 GHs in these combos to represent the full load out. It isn't even possible to assemble 10 GHs with just Boltguns (2-handed version) from the box. You can do it with one-handed bolters but not even sure what to put in the other hand if you want to go strictly wysiwyg.

      • clever handle says:

        pistols, empty hands, grenades, skulls, magazines, helmets…. use your imagination!

        • Quinn says:

          Not the way GW usually does business though lately. I already kit-bashed the hell out of these guys with various SM and FW stuff..so they are staying as is regardless of the rules.

          • clever handle says:

            as long as you AND I can somehow keep straight which models are armed which way (if your squads are mixed and matched) I wouldn't care if I were your opponent.

          • clever handle says:

            but to be fair, I play CSM & when the new dex dropped, I modified all the guys in my existing CSM army appropriately, was less than a weekend project.

          • Nomeny says:

            I didn't even have to modify mine, since they were either equipped with boltguns or pistols and ccws.

          • clever handle says:

            I had to snap off a bunch of CCW. My CSM don't punch unless they have to – without ubergrit they're more than capable of outclassing guard (maybe not with a priest anymore…), Tau and Eldar in combat and are on equal footing with space marines. They don't need to have the extra attack – T1 move flat out forward; turn 2, disembark then rapid fire; turn 3, pistols & assault – or continue to rapid-fire depending on the target.

            My punchy stuff comes punchy stock & doesn't need to pay for it (spawn, bikes, maulerfiends)

          • Nomeny says:

            People usually miss the fact that CSM Bikes come with bolt pistols and close combat weapons.

          • clever handle says:

            yup! and the "option" to either replace the pistol OR bike's TL bolter with any upgraded special weapons…. as if that's a choice!

          • WestRider says:

            I actually really appreciated that they provided that option, because previous CSM Dexes have gone back and forth, and at various times one or the other was required. Now either is acceptable, and so no one has to rip their bikers apart.

          • clever handle says:

            just all of their actual chaos marines

          • Nomeny says:

            They didn't have to rip their Chaos Space Marines apart either.

          • clever handle says:

            pay points, rip apart, build new, or hope you had them built "correctly" you're correct in that they didn't HAVE to. But I'll bet many did – I know I did, but as I've stated above, it wasn't a big deal.

  14. Craig says:

    Downside is no more long fangs with cyclone wolf guard thrown in, upside is now it's easier to fit 10 man squads into a rhino or drop pod and you can still get double special weapons as well as the combi weapon. Overall I think making the wolf guard a sergeant upgrade works out for the better even if it was a fun and fluffy mechanic.

    As to the flyer, well I guess they have to get down from orbit somehow and sometimes a Thunderhawk is just overkill. I agree I'm not sure they would bother making their own flyer type but they don't do anything else the conventional way so meh.

    • Shadar_Logoth says:

      >> upside is now it's easier to fit 10 man squads into a rhino or drop pod and you can still get double special weapons as well as the combi weapon.

      That's a pretty fair point.

    • WestRider says:

      That is a good point. Mostly what I'm going to miss is just for aesthetic reasons, when playing casual Games I put Terminator WG in with my GH Packs because it looks really cool to have that one dude in Termi Armour leading each PA group.

      I guess I'll trade "looks cool" for "works better in Rhinos and Drop Pods" :)

  15. Wavefire says:

    Well let's see.

    GH: Nerfed, sergeant is nice but but no bolters and no cheap special weapons means they're vanilla marines with no option for heavy weapon.
    BC: Buffed but still crap. Rage won't save them with WS3.
    WG: Basically gone, was a neat rule to mix and match but they'll be used as much as vanilla termis now.

    Flyers are nice but don't make up for the nerfs and lack of usable buffs. SW stays as sub par in 7th.

    • Desc440 says:

      Let's not freak out just yet. There is so very little we know about the book right now that to say that SW remain subpar is extremely premature at this point.

      • Nody says:

        This is the internetz; things only come in two flavors, Underpowered or Overpowered (and usually my stuff is UP and yours is OP)

    • Shadar_Logoth says:

      BC: Buffed but still crap. Rage won't save them with WS3.

      WS3 isn't really that big of a deal.

      • CrimsonFury82 says:

        BC already have rage (doesn't use the name, but +2A on the charge is the same regardless). So they remain the same aside from a points drop. Which might be enough to make them useable.

        I agree WS3 isn't a big deal.

  16. BAH!!! Screw 7th Edition! I'll just wait a few weeks for 8th!

  17. Bobby g says:

    Well here I sat waiting patiently for the wolves codex to brighten my storm cold days and I hear they are gonna cost more, be less strong, have less options, be more main stream and all this of a group of “I don’t give a dam what people want ya to do, let’s just kill heretics, tell stories and drink!” I don’t think GW THOUGHT THIS THROUGH!

    The wolves are a no none sense, don’t take no crap of of no body legion who are the sanction of the imperium. How is this right if they are now weaker than those they are supposed to be sanctioning!

    Why not send an invite to the heretics for a all you can eat on fenris?

    Come on GW, wolves arriving I shoe boxes?

    Blood claws with no bite?

    Gray hunters who look like space marines?

    No update on the lets whoop some zeenos with FENRISIAN PURE PSYCIC ABILITIES?

    Put your brains in gear and think outlandish hulking monster wolf dudes who won’t conform, not SPACE MARINE LOOK ALIKES IN A SHOE BOX!

    • _Garnet_ says:

      "The wolves are a no none sense, don't take no crap of of no body legion"

      For comparison's sake, which chapters are nonsensical crap-takers, exactly?

      • Alastores says:

        Ultramarines? :P

        For Crap-Taking – Every loyalist legion that accepted the Codex Astartes without protest. Limiting the numbers made sense, but the Constrain-To-Ultramarine-Method-Of-Warfare is STUPID.

        • _Garnet_ says:

          Eh, that largely just depends on how individual writers portray the Codex Astartes when it comes up in the fluff. If it's literally a list of explicit ways to fight that you're not allowed to deviate from, yeah, it's dumb as a box of hammers, but when it's suggested that it's more like a tactical guide crossed with the Art of War and one that is supposed to be a living document, sure, makes sense that you'd follow the writings of apparently the only demigod to ever bother to write down any of their genius for later generations. I don't generally fault Guilliman for the CA, because that dude was literally trying his best to write down every idea he'd had that had made his Legion the largest and most successful in the Crusade, I just wonder why the heck someone like Dorn or (pre-Heresy) Sanguinius or Manus didn't offer their Legion's their own version that could have served as a useful counterbalance. And of course, I do consider any 'present' Ultramarine who views the CA to be an inviolable holy tome to be just as stupid as any of the other unthinking zealots populating the Imperium of Man.

          • Nomeny says:

            Sanguinius was dead, Ferrus Manus was dead, and Dorn generally trusted his legionaries to come up with their own thing.

          • _Garnet_ says:

            "I just wonder why the heck [...] (pre-Heresy) Sanguinius or Manus didn't offer their Legion's their own version"

            Guilliman was working on the CA before the Heresy ever rolls around; the Ultramarines are already taking it as their overall tactical guide when the Word Bearers open fire at Calth. There's no reason for the other primarchs not to have followed suit, and for Dorn to trust that his legionaries couldn't benefit from the incredible tactical genius of one of the nineteen most intelligent beings in human space is just silly on his part. Have faith that they can adapt and overcome, but if you're a demigod and the father of your tens-of-thousands-plus war-brothers who routinely has to fly through space-hell, maybe make a couple quick notes.

          • Alastores says:

            Gulliman writing it down was sensible – for HIS legion, it was very useful. I don't understand why he EVER thought it was a sensible thing for the Raven Guard (stealth specialists….) to adopt the same method of warfare.

            It's not writing the Codex Astartes that was the issue. It was forcing the others to adopt it that was.

            We don't actually know why Guilliman's legion was the most successful. Honestly, in part, it just sort of looks like he lucked out – unlike most of the others, he was born into a ruling warrior family that already had the beginnings of a Space Empire. He didn't have to dig himself out of slavery, or an Ice Pit, or any of the other problems.

            It's also a bit difficult to tell what problems he actually faced in the Ultima Segmentum. Some Orcs, but other than that…

            (I do find it amusing how the Ultramarine's role so far in the Horus Heresy series is "Lose, lose some more, get angry and lose, then skirt rebellion. :P ).

          • Desc440 says:

            Actually, the Codex incorporates military tactics from a variety of sources (including the Traitor Primarchs) and covers a variety of methods of warfare. While each Chapter may focus on particular aspects of its doctrine, it isn't the strict, inflexible tome it's often made out to be. And that is why even stealth specialists like the Raven Guard heed its wisdom.

          • _Garnet_ says:

            See, that's what I've always liked about the Ultramarines; unlike most of the other main chapters, their fluff isn't mostly about their stirring and overwhelming victories, crushing all before them with their terminator-grade balls, it's to get the shit kicked out of them and still come back and grind on to victory. It's why the previous Space Marines codex was so utterly galling. The Ultramarines shouldn't be this shining city on a hill, they should be the ultimate everyman Space Marine, who yeah, loses, and then loses some more, and then ultimately comes through bloodied but unbeaten. It's why the Ultramarines' most defining fight is the Battle of Macragge, where they lose their entire first company.

          • WestRider says:

            I think "chase the Alpha Legion around fruitlessly" comes in there somewhere, too ;)

      • Nomeny says:

        I'm pretty sure that's Chapter 101, the Emperor's Silly Buggers.

      • WestRider says:

        The Raven Guard seem to get shit on fairly regularly :P

    • CoffeeGrunt says:

      I too really hate that GW messed up the WolfWolfClawFangWolfThunderWolfWolfWolf flavour of the codex!

      • SisterAcacia says:

        They could at least give us a more traditional SW hero like Wulf Wolfurius Wolfgar von Wolfenstein Wolfhammer.

    • Nomeny says:

      Considering all the Space Wolf players I knew in 5th and 6th tended to transport their armies in shoeboxes, it seems appropriate.

  18. fleshterror says:

    What about our best unit the wolfen. Any news on those?

  19. derreavatar says:

    The lack of CCW makes no sense, i've build a whole army based on that, and won't change a single bit because of a new edition. I don't get why on hell they still cost more than vanilla SM now .Also the single attached 2+ model, while certainly not game breaking, was nice , and sometimes saved your ass both in assaults and counter assaults. Just hope to see something new now, because SW look like boring SM. But we should wait and see. Also, SM have access to grav weapons, if SW don't have them, they are quite crap. Not only centurion devastators, also combigrav and grav guns on bykes are a thing. SW should be able to do SOMETHING in melee, but in my opinion, they are rather weak now. Also, their special weapons at full price is quite a setback- at the end , you will be paying a lot of points more to have less, if you compare with vanilla SM. But at the end, we should see the whole book before commening, because a single unit entry can change a codex's performace completely.

    • derreavatar says:

      Ah and also- without the " sergeant" upgrade, you have no characters whatsoever. So no challenges- less important now that wounds pass over, but whatever, always a setback, because you also have no combi weapons. And Wolf Banners are more worse they say. Goodbye SW, see you in 9th edition.

      • Archibald, sausageer says:

        Relax, GW will release DLC patch for only a *small* amount of money to add in everything that was in the old codex.

        Remember, GW wants to give you what you want.

        As long as you pay.

        • clever handle says:

          or learn to type this phrase into your google search bar "Codex XXXX pdf" – as long as you don't "need" it on D-Day then you're golden.

  20. Cazarir says:

    Or then, maybe we can wait until the actual codex release before making holy pledges to tear GW out of our hearts. It is a normal codex release, those things which are now good will be nerfed, those which were previously bad will be buffed, and there will be a new unit or two, which are either tau fliers, usable or riptide.

    Don't know why space wolves needed a new codex though, I think blood angels could had used it first, space wolves were so good when they were released that they were still good even after all this time, while blood angels cough in their wheelchair, remembering the good ol' days when you would see assault marines with jump packs on a tournament table.

    • CrimsonFury82 says:

      Both armies were good throughout 5th edition and bad once 6th rolled around. At the rate GW has been releasing codexs, all the 5th edition books will be redone within a year (only 4 left after Space wolves)

    • Nomeny says:

      Blood Angels have deep-striking Objective Secured Land Raiders. They're fine.

  21. Eclipse says:

    These are just a rehash of rumours, minus the stormwolf rules, that was fed to Faeit by someone who calculated the stormclaw box set rules/points. While not taking into account how inaccurate the Stormclaw points costs were in comparison to the 7th edition New Ork codex.

    The main reason the rumours will be proved false is the fact that GW would never specify you NEED to represent the models with the appropriate Boltgun/BP or BP/ccw when the majority of their kit wouldn't allow for this.

    Also, the relevant rumour post on faeit said that SWs would be getting the AA tanks and centurions from the C:SM book. GW wouldn't do this ever because it means cutting out potential revenue of people wanting these units and having to make an allied detachment to go with them.
    http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/space-wolves… < –link to original post.

    It's utter drivel. We will wait and see when some proper rule rumours come out.

  22. Sethis_II says:

    Frankly it makes me happy they realised that Grey Hunters were Space Marines but BETTER IN EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE WAY and toned them down. And please don't tell me how having a Heavy Weapon somehow justifies the crapness of Tacticals.

    At least now you pay points or have to trade to get the benefits. It's 5 years late, but it seems that SW are no longer "Marines, but better" like they have been for a long time.

    • Desc440 says:

      I don't think anyone would contest the fact that cheap/free special weapons and ubergrit was unjustified, but by the same token, making GH worse than Tacticals is not justified either.

      • Sethis_II says:

        As it stands, it works out as 1pt per model for Counterattack and Acute Senses, for the loss of Combat Tactics. They still get double specials, and I'm a very strong advocate of that being miles better than a Special and a Heavy, they can still take Combiweapons on the Sarge (so an extra special over how many they could take last codex), and have the option for the ADDITIONAL Firepower of two Pistols (though I assume they're still 15pts each?). That means a Drop Pod GH pack rocking full plasma can punch out 7 Plasma Shots the turn they drop. Hell of an Alpha Strike compared to their Tactical brothers.

        I see a nerf, sure. But I don't see "Worse than Tacticals" at all. :)

        • abusepuppy says:

          Yes, but that eight-plasma squad would be 270pts, so not exactly a sterling deal.

          • Sethis_II says:

            I suppose that depends on how you look at it. I'd find it a damn sight better than 205-215pts of Tactical crap. Two Plasma Pod GH squads potentially drops a Wraithknight T1. 2 Tac squads in Rhinos or whatever pop off two Heavy Weapon shots and sits around. I'll take the points increase for the effectiveness boost.

          • abusepuppy says:

            it's great if you want to do like SW generally do and throw your troops into the meat grinder. Tacticals aren't meant for that- they're supposed to sit back, throw some tertiary firepower at things, and stay alive until the game ends- something they generally do a lot better than GH because they aren't sitting at 12" or less range from things.

          • Sethis_II says:

            Really? Whenever I run Tacticals, I do them in pairs of 20 with a Special and a Combi, and strike at a single target with all of them. Double the output of a Tac squad and they actually become threatening at the 12" range, esp with any kind of buff (Bolter Drill etc). Not much (that tacticals are useful against) can take that and fight back effectively against 20 Marines.

          • Nomeny says:

            Concentrating force on the enemy is always a good idea. I find treating them as a pure Anti-Infantry unit works best, where their bolters can shine.

        • Desc440 says:

          1 pt more for what would be a middling Chapter Tactic at best. Double specials is cool and all, but you're essentially paying 20 pts per plasmagun at that point… that is less awesome.

          Depending on what else is in the book, it may work out fine, but if Hunters have indeed lost their CCW, they will be Tacticals-but-worse indeed.

          • Sethis_II says:

            You think Counterattack is "middling" when you have free and ready access to 2xCCWs and your ideal range is 12" or less? Play with Raven Guard CTs some time and tell me how poor your rules are.

            Oh, and since they've changed Acute Senses since 5th then Wolves might get some kind of tasty Outflank nonsense to actually take advantage of that capability. We'll see.

          • Desc440 says:

            Do SW get access to a cheap assault vehicle I'm not aware of? Because otherwise, equiping them with 2 x CCW is a terrible idea.

            Yes, the RG CT is terrible. That doesn't make the SW CT-equivalent not-middling.

          • Avatar says:

            Amazingly, just because a unit is good at assault doesn't mean that its quality is defined by how much assault you're doing.

            Grey Hunters were much, much better in assault than vanilla tacs. That doesn't mean that assault is the only role they're suitable for – but it does mean that they're simply not vulnerable to assaulting units in the same way a squad of tacs would be. Would I pile into a unit of missile devastators with a sawed-off squad of ork boyz? Sure, with glee, and I'd expect to take 'em too. Try the same against Grey Hunters and the orks go back in the box, massive casualties before I even get to swing.

            And they didn't really pay anything for that bonus either. (of course back then regular tacs were 16 a pop…)

            It's quite arguable that counterattack is much better on a unit with 2A as compared to 1A – more attacks are better in more-than-linear progression until you have a really stupid number of attacks handy. A unit with 30 attacks when you charge it is far better than a unit with 20 attacks when you charge it, especially if round 2 is 10 instead of 20 even before you take casualties into account. So without the extra base attacks, the bonus attacks may not be enough to boost it into "ugh, I don't want to charge this bastard" territory.

      • daboarder says:

        My CSMs feel oh so terrible for you……

    • abusepuppy says:

      It's too bad that Tactical Marines don't get any *coughcombatsquadscough* other special abilities to *coughchaptertacticscough* make up for the fact that they *coughcombattacticscough* don't have ubergrit or Counterattack.

      • Sethis_II says:

        I've mentioned Combat tactics already, and Chapter Tactics can go suck a hairy goat cock, because I'd take 2x CCWs and CA over every single one of them, every time.

        • abusepuppy says:

          Okay. I guess I'm a big fan of getting twice as many Objective Secured units with any of a wide range of (usually) strong abilities tacked on. But hey, I'm sure +1 Attack is great, too, what with this being melee edition and all.

          • Wavefire says:

            And to add on to that, let's not forget no free sergeant making the WG one almost mandatory. But hey, combat squadding and Chapter tactics is clearly worth 1p less than Countercharge.

            As is, if these rumours are true GH is the worst Tacticals in the game. Might change with full rules but going from best to worst seem a bit excessive.

        • valroth says:

          I'd, I would take an army wide feel no pain or twin linking special weapons over counter attack. If you view CA as space wolves chapter tactic, your really swapping combat squads for a ccw.

  23. Odinsport says:

    Before anyone makes any “wolf hater” comments towards me, I have played ONLY wolves since 2nd edition. Grey hunters are just space marines and mine are all in “John Woo” double gun poses. They still get their charge bonus whether charging or being charged. Blood claws are basically scouts with power armour and extra attacks on the charge. None of these changes are a big deal as the character of the the chapter comes in the forum of special characters, versatile terminators, long fangs who can split to shoot multiple targets and thunderwolves with toughness bonuses. One thing everyone seems to forget is that the most important part of the date wolves image is the iconography on the models, not the load out. Sure, they may be a couple of points more than vanilla marines but they will be just as effective and I for one will adapt my play style to suit. I’m definitely liking the idea of throwing a flying brick at my opponent and unloading 15 blood claws and an attached wolf priest in their grill! The grey hunters will drop pod in or razorback in, making their dedicated transport a “secured objective unit. They are more useful for scoring and defending or raining melta on vehicles than they are for attacking all out anyway and have been since 7th edition came along. If you want a combat non vanilla marine army…….go find some tyranids.

  24. Odinsport says:

    Before anyone makes any “wolf hater” comments towards me, I have played ONLY wolves since 2nd edition. Grey hunters are just space marines and mine are all in “John Woo” double gun poses. They still get their charge bonus whether charging or being charged. Blood claws are basically scouts with power armour and extra attacks on the charge. None of these changes are a big deal as the character of the the chapter comes in the form of special characters, versatile terminators, long fangs who can split to shoot multiple targets and thunderwolves with toughness bonuses. One thing everyone seems to forget is that the most important part of the wolves image is the iconography on the models, not the load out. Sure, they may be a couple of points more than vanilla marines but they will be just as effective and I for one will adapt my play style to suit. I’m definitely liking the idea of throwing a flying brick at my opponent and unloading 15 blood claws and an attached wolf priest in their grill! The grey hunters will drop pod in or razorback in, making their dedicated transport a “secured objective unit. They are more useful for scoring and defending or raining melta on vehicles than they are for attacking all out anyway and have been since 7th edition came along. If you want a combat non vanilla marine army…….go find some tyranids.

  25. Valroth says:

    I've fine with it as long as you can still buy the bolter, bolt pistol, and ccw combo as a upgrade …. if not I have to remodel at least half of my space wolves, which sucks. Hopefully they end up being able to get the chain sword for 1-2 pts per model.

    • WestRider says:

      Same here. I'm willing to roll with it if they get more expensive, but I don't want to have to break apart every single one of my Grey Hunters, since they all have a CCW along with their Bolter or Special Weapon.

  26. Aurenian says:

    I don't see them making you break all your basic troops. I'll wait til I see the actual book.

    As for the flyer. It's the first space marine flyer that's come out that I think looks good without modification.
    To me that looks like a boarding torpedo. I see that thing just coming through the atmosphere almost vertical and blasting away at the ground before levelling out at the last moment to drop off troops.

    If you read the Horus Heresy books the space wolves use landing craft all the time, and tend to drive them at breakneck speed.

  27. Redmoo says:

    Does no one else think the design is fine because they look like D-Day type landing craft basically?

    • Desc440 says:

      D-Day landing crafts were boats; a boat with wings looks dumb as hell. So my answer is no.

      • blacksly says:

        Needs moar oars.

        • Scuzgob says:

          if they were flying viking longships id be all for them

          • blacksly says:

            I was really annoyed when they got TFCs… because Vikings never rode IN battle, just to battle. So it would have made more sense to give them open-topped Rhinos, so they could hang their shields on the edge, and ride those into battle. Rather than cavalry, which should have been left for the Knights in Space (Black Templars). Tracked viking long-Rhinos would have been cool

          • Scuzgob says:

            just wait until we get blood angels riding giant space bats

          • Desc440 says:

            I just see TWC as a lost opportunity to introduce MegaWulfen (i.e, full-on Werewolves in Power Armour) instead of the silly notion of a superhuman soldier riding a superwolf to battle.

          • Aurenian says:

            I had a surreal apoc game last year where the pivotal combat in the middle was a wolf lord with thunderwolf calvalry vs Skulltaker and some bloodcrushers.

            In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium there is only FREAKY CAVALRY!

  28. nintendo_ted says:

    All the crying about loss of CCW…… Shoot more….Close Combat is dead…..GG.

    • Desc440 says:

      As long as Hunters aren't still paying for the CCW, I don't think anyone would necessarily have a problem with that.

    • Scuzgob says:

      good argument, +1 for overuse of ellipses

    • Valroth says:

      the QQ is from of having to reconfigure 25+ grey hunters that have bolters and chainswords or bolt pistols and chainswords that would need to be just bolters. I don't really mind it rules wise but you cant even build a 10 man squad just with bolters from the grey hunter box.

      Since the majority of space wolves players use grey hunter squads its more just annoying from a modeling perspective.

      • clever handle says:

        … deal with it? Us chaos players had to 2 years ago and we made it through.

        • Quinn says:

          We're not Chaos…there is a penalty for turning from the true path.

          • clever handle says:

            "The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom.
            Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
            Cherish her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you.
            She will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown."
            – Proverbs 4.

            Get wisdom. Embrace the primordial truth!

  29. Guest says:

    Honestly, when looking at the flyer, I keep thinking of assault boats from BFG. The melta immune seems a bit much when that thing is already flying. (hard to hit) One thing I'm interested to see is how Space wolves will deal with allies, shoving a nice buffer character with Grey Hunters or Blood Claws, or even an allied unit of TH/SS termies in that flying thing and toss them at the enemy. while having the full benefit of Long fang support and Thunderwolf cav/Wolve chaff to tie stuff up. (or absorb overwatch)

    • Aurenian says:

      All space marine flyers have the ceramite plating. It dates back to the thunderhawk entry when it was the only flyer.

      Fluff-wise they are all high speed re-entry vehicles, so they use it to not explode when they come in hot.

  30. Threadmiser says:

    Wow, can Spess Mahreens get a flyer the isn't a Lego brick with jet engines strapped on?

    • Scuzgob says:

      no, the Laws of Modern Sci-Fi dictate that human technology must be boxes with stuff stuck on. only aliens get interesting designs.

    • abusepuppy says:

      The vast majority of the Imperium, including a large number of members of the Adeptus Mechanicus, probably literally do not know what aerodynamics are. Why are we surprised that their flyers look ridiculous to our eyes?

      • Nomeny says:

        "Why Thaddeus, these primitive idiots from the future probably don't even understand lighter-than-air flight. Why just look at their airships; there's no hydrogen-tankage, nor even any propellers. How ridiculous!"

      • Gandasch says:

        "What? Zät is not ä Komputer. Zis is ä Komputer!!"

      • Desc440 says:

        Well, to be fair, regardless of wether or not the AdMech understand aerodynamics themselves, the ones who came up with STC technology that they maintain most likely did, so it's a valid issue.

        • clever handle says:

          No its not a valid issue. This is a space-fantasy, fictitious setting. If we were talking about design instruction in a 4th year aeronautical engineering textbook then it would be a valid issue. =)

        • onecrazymojo says:

          It also isn’t a valid issue because they aren’t designed to use air foils or aerodynamics. They are space faring vessels, where as it turns out, aerodynamics are pointless. And as atmospheric reentry transports, they are designed to behave closer to gunboat helicopters or harriers (note the propensity for the giant jets on the sides to be repositioned at different angles), things that are known for being closer to flying bricks instead of sleek jets, and need to be sturdy enough to not break up on entry (even our space shuttle looks closer to a brick than a ship).

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