Dark Eldar Rumors

From the forums (where there be pictures):

– Huskblades are ap3, cheaper, not a relic
– Racks now work on all Splinter weapons
– Wych weapons nerfed. Hydras confer Shred, Razors reroll To Hit, Shardnet/Impaler reroll 1s on To Hit and To Wound
– Stun Claw is +1S, ap6, confers ID in challenge
– Shadow Field is more expensive
– Incubi are still ap2
– Torment Gren. Launchers can now be fired, 24″, blast, s1, unit hit tests Ld, takes a wound for each point it failed, no armor or cover saves, doesnt work against ATSKNF
– Night Shield confers Stealth
– Hex Rifle inflicts ID on Precision Hits
– Soul Trap gives +1s for each usnaved wound inflicted in a challenge
– Reavers no longer attack while moving, now bladevanes are improved HoW. Caltrops inflict D6 rending HoWs, Gravs inflict Concussive
– Spirit Probe now improves FnP of all Deldar in 6″ by 1 to a max od 4+
– Phantasm works like TGL, shorter range
– Ossefactor is assault 1, fleshbane, ap2. If something is killed then the victims unit get d6 hits with s equal to t of the victim, ap-, ignores cover
– Liquifier is now s3
– Implosion Msls are s6 ap2 blast
– Chain Flails now only give Shred
– Talos has 3 attacks, same as Cronos
– Borh Haemy and Archon improve PfP, they let a unit add a 1 to the turn number for PrP, this stacks
– Warlord traits are ultrashitty, one gives the warlord +1 ws…
– Artefacts look average too, there is the old Djinn blade which works almost the same, a helmet that gives adamantium will in 12″ and perils on any double, a terrible pistol, an ghostplate that gives -2 Ld in 6″ and Fear, also one of the items does not work against atsknf. There is also Animus Vitae which is a one use, assault 1, s4 ap2, 8″ that if a unsaved wound is inflicted lets all Deldar add 1 to the turn number for PfP effects until the end of the game
– it says that Dodge now works against any wounds inflicted in fight sub phase, I am nit sure if overwatch counts or not
– bomber is 10 av on all sides
– it looks like Venom Blade can only be taken by the Acothyst now
– no flickerfields for anything other than venoms
– sails let a vehicle flat out 24″
– lances on infantry are a bit cheaper

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147 responses to Dark Eldar Rumors

So, uh, DE are _really_ shitty now, then? Nothing to let Wyches get into assault better (Overwatch happens during the Charge sub-phase, not the Fight sub-phase), nothing to help them hold objectives better, nothing to mitigate their incredibly fragility, nothing to help them destroy tanks or Knights more effectively, etc, etc.

7E codices are starting to look like pretty awful bullshit.

Not against other armies.

Also, great work there. "Hmm, people aren't really using Wyches other than suicide Haywire delivery systems. Clearly what we need to do is make their weapons shitty. PROBLEM FIXED!"

But at the rate there updating codexs soon every army will have a pretty awful bullshit codex and the playing field will be level. Everybody complained about the newest dex being op and codex creep now they are bringing out non op dex and people are complaining. I don't really play 40k anymore but I actually feel sorry for GW doesn't matter what they do someone is always pissed about it

Well there's a difference between crap "GW removed a lot of the unique flavor and did not buff the weak units" and crap "GW removed a lot of the unique flavor in a weak codex and nerfed it even further"

The first has been most of 7th codexes, DE is second by the sound of it getting a similar treatment as Sisters.

This "GW will get ALL the codexes done and balanced" crap never eventuates, aat some point an asshole writes the Eldar, Space Wolves etc codex for that generation of books and everything that goes before gets royal shafted.

Making all of the armies the game bland and rather uninteresting is not a great way to balance things, nor is presenting clear monobuilds.

I was kind of hoping there'd be something to give them back some viability, but this does certainly look like a swing in the other direction. Looks like more and more that I'm just going to sit 7E out these days… Between the job and some of the treatment my favs are getting, it just doesn't seem all that worth it.

Oh well. I can still marvel at the shiny tiny plastic spacemens and switch to being a pure hobbyist, I suppose.

Yep, "Just Hobbyist" not Player, hard to justify GW plastic spacemens when there are so many other than GW cool plastic spacemens out there for 1/4 the cost…

People need to pull up their big boy pants and look at the awesomsauce:

1) Deepstrike (without scatter) your HQ with a ten man grot squad, then just go multicharge the crap out of stuff, as we did with the pack.
2) Put a cronos in with two talos and get 4+ FNP MCs.
3) Fearless turn five and on….anyone say ObSec?
4) Deepstrike all your venoms for LOLs
5) Ally with eldar and get that Autarch to help with reserve rolls and some more beatstick with the grot wrecking crew.
6) Still no word on scourges, could have a few sweet muffins there…or nothing.

I am sure there is more, but I see some very powerful tools at our disposal.

Lol you must be lost. This is the histrionic overreaction thread. That's kind of what this place has turned into since Kirbs isn't posting as much and AP is leading the rabble.

1) Sure, for 500pts you have this amazeballs unit that oh wait no it gets its shit kicked in by Knights and other deathstars, and gets shot to pieces/ignored by all the firepower armies.

2) Yes, 3+/W3/FNP. Maybe if they get a significant price break that could be a thing, but the Talos/Chronos are slow, have bad shooting, and come in an army without other tough choices to back them up. And the Riptide has been able to get 2+/W5/FNP for a long time now, so I doubt they are going to impress.

3) Fearless doesn't matter when you're dead. DE troops are incredibly fragile.

4) And watch your opponent shoot them down for equal lulz.

5) Every single problem seems to be solved by "and use Eldar to fix that." Maybe just run an Eldar army instead?

6) "We don't know this unit is bad, so clearly it's good!" That's very optimistic of you, but given the way the rest of the codex looks I do not share your rosy viewpoint.

He didn't say clearly it's anything. He said it might be good. Why do you have to lie about what people are obviously saying to make your BS points?

Because he declared that this unit that he knows nothing about was "awesomsauce".

Now, I'm aware that that's a non-defined term, but the argument "It might be good" doesn't belong in a list of stuff that is trying to counter concenrs about the codex.

I mean, we also don't have the rules yet for the Dark Eldar Masochon, a new unit that might exist and might be good, or alternatively, I just made up. The potential existance of a good unit doesn't change anything.

The correct argument at this point to counter the reactions is "ok, we don't know everything yet", not "Well, X might be good!". Yes. It might. It also might be terrible.

You realize your first sentence contradicts everything you wrote after that sentence right?

His point was we don't have all the information out. I think its reasonable to assume some units might be good? But if you are determined to bitch about every single little thing, be my guest.

-Huskblades nerfed
-Splinter racks the same (add in the Cannon salvo nerf)
-Wych weapons – You said it
-Stunt Claw – who cares
– more expensive shadow field – why ?
-Incubi ap2 – well that would be a dissapointment
-Torment grenade launcher – ok, can be usefull
– Night shields give stealth – what if i roll night fight, FML
– Hex riffle – never used it doubt i will now
– Soul trap – yeah cause starting with s3 was so OP. NERF
– Spirit probe – ok if you play with the haemoengines
– Phantasm – so no nades for the unit ?
– Ossefactor – you knew it's gonna be good,since it comes with the new kit
– Liquifier – only usefull when twin linken on a talos
– Imp Missiles – and the price is ?
– Chain flales – shred on a s7 monstrous creature – this better be free
– Haemoengines with 3 attacks – yeah ok
– Characters improving pfp – did you ever played with more than one hq wit DE?
– Warlord traits are shit You say?
– Wargear – not impressed
– Overwatch is in tha charge sub phase so tough luck wyches (i heard that only the hekatrix can get haywire nades, so that sucks big time )
– You know cause bombers always tend to have light armor – FML
– Sometimes all you can afford is a venom blade – don't take it away from us
– no flickerfields on paper boats – yeah, at this point i'm like FUCK YOU
– wow so a now it's a six whereas it used to be 2d6 – yeah thah HAD to be changed – lame
– Lances were 25 pts on warriors, DUUUUH they had to get cheaper

I just hope this isn't all true

I wish there was a way to use an armies models as "any" army (Counts As) more easily and accepted by the general community as a whole. Back in the day, the hold out Squat players used IG or Ork codex.
3++ has a good start here for rules, just needs to address models more; http://www.3plusplus.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59
Or a generic army list put out by GW would be great; light armor guy (IG, Cultist etc.) medium armor guy (SM-scouts, guardians, etc.) and heavy armor guy (terminators, mega-orks, etc.) and same with vehicles, that would be nice.
Your examples are dead on

I know it's a faux pas to comment on someone's spelling in an internet fight but I really cannot allow 'hero's'.

So, in general, a lot of really pointless changes and a lot of stuff nerfed.

– Huskblade now pointless
– wych weapons of negligible value (and it's not like they were amazing before…)
– Stun claws… oh yeah… these things exist.
– Shadow Field now more expensive because… um… stuff you DE players.
– Torment Grenade Launchers can be fired as a weapon… but not against marines. So, that's half of the armies in 40k immune to it by default…
– Night Shields seem pretty terrible and have lost all uniqueness
– Hex Rifle can now cause ID… now if only there was a way to make it suck less on the hitting, wounding and not-ignoring-saves front.
– Soul Trap might, by turn 7, allow your character to reach a worthwhile strength value. Pity he died around turn 4 because his overpriced shadowfield gave out.
– Reavers… sigh.
– Spirit Probe now improves FNP on nearby units… because so many of my battles involve clustering models around my chronos. :S
– Liquifier now awful, unless it's always AP2.
– Was Talos overpowered? I thought it was one of the least taken units? Unless they've halved the cost, it seems like it will be permanently consigned to the shelf.
– Archon now confers the same bonus as a Haemonculus and can fight better. So, is there a reason to take a Haemonculus?
– Oh good, bad Warlord traits, because my enthusiasm needed to be toned down further.
– From the sound of it, those artefacts make the Death Mask of Ollanius look efficient.
– Oh wonderful, our last remaining good weapon is now limited to Acothysts.
– Yey… no flickerfields for anything other than Venoms. Because they were obviously OP before.
– Are lances less-crap? Because, that's what I'm interested in. Though, I'm guessing not.

I really hope these aren't true.

If they are… DE army for sale.

join Tau. I got out of IG when they became a psyker army, and acquired FE. (plus a small SM detachment for OpFor)

– Huskblade now pointless – No; it's just not anti-terminator anymore. Was I the only one here with the sense not to charge TH/SS Terminators with my HQ that can fail one save and die? Gee, I must be smarter than I thought.
– wych weapons of negligible value (and it's not like they were amazing before…) – I beg to differ, re-rolls are still pretty good. Try rolling to see how much this changes results.
– Stun claws… oh yeah… these things exist. – Yeah, fun item, probably not required.
– Shadow Field now more expensive because… um… stuff you DE players. – Hey, SMs need to be the best, everyone knows this.
– Torment Grenade Launchers can be fired as a weapon… but not against marines. So, that's half of the armies in 40k immune to it by default… – Really don't care, not like you bought these anyway.
– Night Shields seem pretty terrible and have lost all uniqueness. – Actually, Stealth is nicer than -6" range against people who are experienced, and 3+ Jink Saves are fine by me. But maybe I am too hopeful.
– Hex Rifle can now cause ID… now if only there was a way to make it suck less on the hitting, wounding and not-ignoring-saves front. – Welcome to the world of Sniper Rifles sucking, news at – Release of 7th Edition.
– Soul Trap might, by turn 7, allow your character to reach a worthwhile strength value. Pity he died around turn 4 because his overpriced shadowfield gave out. – Pity, because you know, people accept challenges anyway, right? (They don't) My Archon tries to avoid HQ vs HQ duels, those are too "fair" of fights.
– Reavers… sigh. – Probably a given, auto-hits + 3+ Cover Saves are not nice and balanced.
– Spirit Probe now improves FNP on nearby units… because so many of my battles involve clustering models around my chronos. :S – Because you used Cronos in the first place, right?
– Liquifier now awful, unless it's always AP2. – I've rolled this one out several times and math proves – the more you hit the more closer to the old version it is. So – No longer anti-terminator but anti-big marine squads. Not bad, could've been worse, all things considered.
– Was Talos overpowered? I thought it was one of the least taken units? Unless they've halved the cost, it seems like it will be permanently consigned to the shelf. – Well now that you can take them in squadrons, I beg to differ.
– Archon now confers the same bonus as a Haemonculus and can fight better. So, is there a reason to take a Haemonculus?
– Oh good, bad Warlord traits, because my enthusiasm needed to be toned down further. – Note that, unless you're taking a Haemonculus, all DE HQ's with +1 WS are hit on 5's by WS 4 and less. You didn't note that? Hm, shallow thinking.
– From the sound of it, those artefacts make the Death Mask of Ollanius look efficient.
– Oh wonderful, our last remaining good weapon is now limited to Acothysts. – Sad as well, but did you take it on everything?
– Yey… no flickerfields for anything other than Venoms. Because they were obviously OP before. – There needs to be some incentive to take Venoms, other than the shooting, right?
– Are lances less-crap? Because, that's what I'm interested in. Though, I'm guessing not. – Not likely, but we still get Haywires at least on squad leaders/HQs. This means one lance pot-shot , a haywire throw, and a charge with planting haywire grenade = dead anything but a Land Raider/Flyer.

The amount of negativity surrounding these rumours is compounded by the fact not every DE player thinks outside the box or just a little in context. I am disappointed in the masses who claim DE take skill and boil their lists down to Lance and Poisoned shot counts.

I think the DE will come out of this all fine, perhaps better than most new books, and the main reason being giving the Eldar/Dark Eldar combo access to Drop Pods-equivalents. This coupled with Objective Secured being a real thing for both races (Jetbikes, Fast Transports) is already dandy.

-Huskblades suck because it's an option you only want as melee kit for a dedicated CC character and it's low Strength AND weak AP. An Archon with a Huskblade won't have a reasonable chance of beating any melee character in the game, nor much of anything else. I mean, what purpose does the Huskblade even serve at this point? It's bad against characters, bad against MCs (need 6s to wound), useless against vehicles…

-Wych Weapons: Paying 10pts for rerolls is bad. You're better off just buying another Wych.

-Night Shields: Stealth is cute, but note that it doesn't stack with Night Fight. And -6" range was potentially very strong when used properly, as not getting shot is better than having a chance of surviving when you are shot.

-You realize that the +1WS trait and the enemy hitting you on 5s will only apply if the character is alone, right? So yeah, sure, charge your solo Archon into a whole squad of Marines and see how that works out for you.

See, the thing about a new codex release is that it should _fix_ units and options that are worthless/overpriced/obsolete. You say over and over again "well, that option was bad before so who cares?" but in other codices there are units that went from being bad to being passable or even good. That's the point of updating things, you know? Saying "they will be fine when paired with Eldar" is silly because that's just leaning on the strength of the Eldar book to prop up a shitty army.

hold on now. I'm going to simply weigh in here to say that the wave serpent will be the one doing the propping up – its doing it already for the craftworld eldar, now it can prop the dark kin as well. Its not like the actual infantry in the eldar book improved – banshees are still aweful, scorpions, reapers and dire avengers, likewise..

Except that Guardians/Dire Avengers got significantly better due to the new Bladestorm rules and BS4 (on Guardians, at least.) Jetbikes got better. Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks and Wraithguard and many other units got better. New units (most notably the Wraithknight) were added. The Eldar codex, whatever its failings, was a genuine update to the army- even if you ripped the Wave Serpent out, it would still have a lot of decent stuff in it, though of course it wouldn't be nearly as powerful.

I don't think you can say that about the new DE. Unlike Eldar, the book doesn't fix the problems with its units. (Anyone remember how terrible Swooping Hawks were before? Or all those BS3 vehicles? Etc.) It's just a cosmetic change and a removal of anything resembling an interesting army build.

I didn't say Eldar hold up the codex at all, I don't rely on Wave Serpents locally because of people hating on them. (Though I love the mech Eldar look, so I break it out in Apoc and such like) But, unlike GK, I think the new DE book is delivering.

"I think the DE will come out of this all fine, perhaps better than most new books, and the main reason being giving the Eldar/Dark Eldar combo access to Drop Pods-equivalents"

You kinda did say that, although not about Wave Serpents.

No he didn't. He specifically stated this:

"and the main reason being giving the Eldar/Dark Eldar combo access to Drop Pods-equivalents."

and it's pretty clear from the context that DE were adding something new to the E's repertoire and that is why he was mentioning them.

guardians & DA are still crap though – and are only taken in minimum squads to unlock more wave serpents – if serpents weren't amazing, we'd be bemoaning how aweful eldar troops really are. Windrider jetbikes are also not "good". They're cheap and fast and that is literally all you can say about them; without a place to hide, they die. So anyone who plays maelstrom missions (y'kno, arguably the biggest part of the 7th edition updated…) will see them score one objective, then get erased.

I mean sure, you've got a wraighknight now, but beyond that the eldar codex has sunk even worse into the funk it was in in 5th edition – footdar was bad, every eldar player stayed in their meched up, hard to kill serpents…. and now? hmm…. big update.

We simply can't say what the dark eldar book will bring at this time. NONE of these rumours are complete. Hell, if wyches didn't change (beyond their weapons nobody took anyways) but dropped to 8ppm then I'll be happy, but at this time, we simply do not know. Just like every other codex drop=)

9pts for two BS4 Rending shots isn't crap. The reason everyone takes them in minimum squads is because that's how you maximize your Wave Serpents- and yeah, neither of them is as good as a Wave Serpent, but no fuckin' surprise there.

If you think Windriders aren't good… uh, well, I guess you haven't noticed that this game is won by objectives? Maelstrom isn't even close to "the biggest part of the 7th edition."

>footdar was bad, every eldar player stayed in their meched up, hard to kill serpents

Do you seriously think that 5E Eldar plays anything like 7E Eldar? Really? C'mon, guy, you know that's not true. I may disagree with you on a lot of stuff, but you can't possibly be so stupid as to think that is the case. The fact that the two armies both use Wave Serpents is effectively meaningless because the Wave Serpent became a totally different tank between those editions.

whats the range on those two BS4 SEMIrending shots? What is the survivability like on those models once they step out of their box?

Windriders aren't good. They're faster assault marines period. Yes, buying a minimum squad and hiding them until its time to contest objectives is great, since they can jump pretty much anywhere on the board, but their inherent survivability is crap and their damage output is crap.

We can continue to disagree regarding Maelstrom. Nothing more needs to be said =)

You're right, 7E eldar does play different – they actually try to kill models now rather than simply playing a shuffle game for 5 turns with their wave serpents. Or the eldar player plays seer council on bikes (oh wait…). Unless you really wanted to put some warp spiders in your list, you literally didn't have to buy a single new model if you were playing serpent spam in 5E and BAM! top competitive list in 6/7E….

>but their inherent survivability is crap and their damage output is crap.

Good thing you aren't supposed to take them for their damage output or survivability, then!

> they actually try to kill models now rather than simply playing a shuffle game for 5 turns with their wave serpents.

And you don't think that them firing off Serpent Shields and whatnot is sorta relevant? I think most people would say that's a pretty important factor when fighting an Eldar list.

>you literally didn't have to buy a single new model if you were playing serpent spam in 5E and BAM!

Yeah, those Eldar lists these days that run Farseers on foot, Falcons, and all that stuff are real fun.

because those falcon + footdar lists were seen everywhere and known to be ultra-effective in 5th edition. Amiright?

Firing off shields is super relelvant, however to do so you don't need to get out of your serpent – in 5th edition you didn't want to get out of your serpent, ergo neither the gameplay nor the list construction has deviated in a significant way in the past 3 years.

"because those falcon + footdar lists were seen everywhere and known to be ultra-effective in 5th edition. Amiright? "

I saw footdar maybe once in 5th, and it was even more hilariously easy to beat than mechdar in late 5th. I certainly wouldn't say they were ultra-effective.

"On foot" means "not riding a jetbike." Back when you could cast from inside a transport, that was by far the most common way to run a Farseer.

5E Eldar danced around, fired shots from Falcons (which had actual guns on them, whereas the Wave Serpent did not) and then Tank Shocked onto objectives in the final turn of the game. It was largely a defensive army that relied on survivability and the inherent resilience of the damage table to carry it through.

7E Eldar doesn't run Falcons at all and uses weight of firepower (not low-AP shots) to do its damage. It is often supported by melee elements (Knights, Autarch, Wraithknights) or mobile foot troops (Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks), although seeing "pure" lists isn't uncommon, either. It is first and foremost a firepower army, relying on the ability to hurt virtually any target in the game with its efficient firepower and weather return shots they can muster.

But yeah, sure, practically the same army because they both contain AV12 skimmers.

bingo – I don't care what unit of T3, whatever save, falls out of the reslient AV12 bunkers, I am facing an army of AV12 bunkers. Just as I was in 5E. The mechanics of how said army does damage are effectively meaningless – all the other things you've mentioned are incidental as the core of the army remains AV12 bunkers.

Same deal as to why 5E was so bland – can you kill marines in boxes? If so, it really doesn't matter if said marines have horns, or blood drops, or wolf pelts, or storm bolters; marines in AV11 boxes was the army, just like eldar are elves in AV12 boxes and have been for the entire time I've played 40K.

I see where you're coming from, but surely that's a good thing – for GW to pick a way a certain race plays then stick to it? I thought that was pretty much the main reason Tyranids have been so lacklustre for a while now; they don't have a clear, consistent 'this is the way this army plays', instead jumping from Nidzilla to Tervigon spam to Skyblight Swarms and never settling down into an archetype.

Eldar's update made the tanks able to do damage and the dudes inside able to do damage, rather than before where they had a pathetic damage output (in my experience) and just flew around on the defensive all game until they tank shocked the objectives as Puppy outlines above.

I'd have been kinda disappointed if Orks had gone from being a melee horde in transports army, or if Space Wolves stopped being a close-up Marine army., or if Guard stopped being a shooting horde and tank army. A lot of them fit in a grey middle area, of course – Tau, Guard, Eldar and Dark Eldar are all shooting-based, but Tau are mobile with heavy vehicles; Guard are more static with heavier vehicles; Eldar are more mobile with lighter vehicles; and Dark Eldar have more firepower with fragile vehicles (all theoretically). It's a lot more complicated than that, obviously, with way more factors, but you can fit each race into a general category (except the aforementioned Tyranids, who I guess would be the Monstrous Creature army but elbowing for space with Daemons, who are the more elite and more combat-orientated MC army if that makes sense).

Sure, there needs to be units outside of that particular structure because otherwise everyone would have the same army, but I think it's probably a good thing that each race has a defining factor that remains the same throughout editions.

Absolutely what you're saying is a good thing. The genesis of the discussion was when AP mentioned that the eldar book "fixed" the broken units…. and I pointed out that, no – the broken units for the most part stayed broken. This is highlighted by the fact that you STILL don't see armies making extensive use of banshees or scorpions, or shining spears, etc.

Archon charges 10 Tacticals in standard kit; Archon has Huskblade, Shadowfield, and +1WS warlord trait. That should come out to roughly even points based on what we know.

10 Tacticals fire overwatch; 17 Bolter shots -> 3 hits -> 2 wounds. 2 Flamer hits -> 1.2 wounds. Archon has a 40% chance of having lost his Shadowfield at this point.

Archon swings, 8(?) attacks -> 6 hits -> 2 wounds, 2 dead marines. Marines swing, 9 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds. Culmulative chance of Shadowfield having gone down is at 60%.

It'll take several more turns of this for him to finish them off, but pretty much what it boils down to is that he will eventually kill them and win the fight (unless they get lucky and down his Shadowfield early), but is almost guaranteed (80%+) to end up standing in the open with essentially no more protection, meaning he's effectively dead as well.

And that's a fairly best-case scenario where he gets to run at them without ever having to weather fire beforehand.

Also possible to avoid the whole squad (and rather, half) shooting because a Raider or Transport he is can cut off some LOS from him to unit. That's why Shock Prows are used with Wychs at the moment – To cut a unit into smaller pieces to charge and have retaliatory attacks…I think there was an article on that even here about that tactic.

It's certainly possible, yes, but with as fragile as Raiders are and their height on the skimmer base it's not great chances. (remember you can draw LOS from any part of a model's body now, not just its eyes.)

Mitigating overwatch via LOS shenanigans is a good plan, but it's much more viable for armies that have bulky transports that are more effective at it, like rhinos. DE, who typically want to be charging from their transport the same turn they disembark (something Marines can't do) won't have that option as often as the transport can't move beyond the 6" prior to disembark.

No, but I do play with similar numbers of points to my opponents, so assuming that I will get to spend the whole game charging 1000pt deathstars into Rhinos and crowing about my triumphs seems like a pretty bad metric of success.

It's sad to me that so many people are swayed by your short sited dumbassery.

It's one round of CC. 1/6th of the total game. You are an idiot.

In one round of CC neither unit kills the other. But keep it up, champ, you're really makin' yourself look good.

Oh know? How dare you besmirch my anonymous online handle?

The Acrhon could easily finish the entire unit off after two full turns (both players) of CC. Leaving him free to do whatever he wants on his turn. So he wipes out an entire squad and loses nothing. The chances of this happening are quite reasonable. This would be the "best case scenario." Putting you at an effective X point advantage that, even if he were to be "at in the open" they would still be "behind" when they dedicate fire in his direction, is how you win games.

But really, this just illustrates how ignorant your random vacuum math hammer that doesn't take into account the actual game situations is. There are many, many, many regular everyday situations when sending a beatstick like that solo into a group he can easily handle is the right thing to do.

Keep playing the victim though. Poor AP, can dish it but he can't take it.

Yeah, killing ten dudes on 5s to wound is "quite reasonable" with two rolls. And since you never, ever roll 1s and lose that Shadowfield, it is a super-awesome plan that always works- that's why DE have been tearing up the tournament scene so badly. Nothing but Archons with Shadowfields as far as the eye can see.

What the hell are your ranting about now? 2 full tunrs would be 4 CC turns. Your own math shows that it's definitly possible to wipe the squad in that time period.

And the rest of your hyperbolic nonesese that has nothing to do with anything is just hyperbolic nonesense that has nothing to do with anything. Why do you have to be such a bitch when someone points out that you are wrong? Maybe if had a more humble attitude you would have won a major tournament by now instead of staring at 25 years of unoriginal net listing futility.

Possible, yes. Likely?

5+4+4+4 attacks. 17. Hitting on 3s. 12 hit . Wounding on 5s. 4 Wound.

4 Dead marines.

That's quite a long way from 10.

Yes, it is. Archons have WS 7, Str 3, Attacks 4.

4 attacks base +1 in the first turn for charging.

Hits on 3s, because…well, I assume you know the Weapon Skill Table.

Wounds on 5s because Archons are strength 3. Strength 3 versus the Marine's toughness 4 is 5s.

If you choose to not give your Archon a blaster, he does get +1 attack a round. That takes the total from 17 to 21.. That means 15 hit, followed by 5 Dead Marines.

Still a long way from 10.

Now, if it's late in the game and they have Furious Charge, it becomes:-
6 Attacks on Round 1. 4 hit, 2 kill a marine. (WS 7 vs 4, Str 4 vs T 4)
then we have 15 attacks over the remaining 3 rounds of your Turn 2 example:- 12 hit, 4 wound.

6 Dead Marines.

Are you perhaps getting an Archon confused with something else?

well, while technically not an archon there is this dude called the Baron… Well, until GW future-murders him on Saturday that is…

The Special Characters for the codex are gutted. Lelith, Drazhar, Urien are all that's left.


So, your gloomy prediction for the Archon vs. Tacticals fight is that the… Archon wins, exactly like Smurfykins said, but that it still doesn't matter because afterwards the rest of the Marine army will kill him because he's totally unsupported by the nonexistent DE army?

Man, look at those goalposts go! It's like someone put the fear of Gork in 'em! ^_~

While I agree with your point, there is no amount of points of Dark Eldar army that can support one dude standing in the open with T3/5+ and three wounds. The Marine army *will* kill him, even say 5 Tacticals rapid-firing him or a spare Razorback shooting or something. However, yes, he does win the combat. Beating up Tacticals in melee sure is an achievement for a melee character – I'm just going off over there to see the Solitaire and Chapter Master on Bike and the Lucky Stikk Warboss and check if they can do that too.

I never said that the Archon couldn't win the fight. I said that sending him into the fight alone was a _bad plan_. Those are not the same statement. The reason it's a bad plan, if I have to elaborate, is because that it leaves him vulnerable to failing a Shadowfield save, which functionally kills him. Shadowfield is good not because it can let you save random wounds from stuff like Bolters but because it lets you shrug off more dangerous stuff- if all you're doing is using it to soak every hit from regular CCWs and basic shooting, it is always going to be unimpressive.

How do you know Wych Weapons are still 10 points. A lot of assumptions you are making with your usual sky is falling silliness.

You could make them free auto-includes in the unit and it still won't make the Wyches good. They weren't game-changing beforehand – actually making Wyches better would involve letting them survive more (flat-out Invulnerable Save like Death Cultists get with their Dodging, as opposed to "close combat attacks only"), or giving them a variety of shooting-based options (Blasters and Shredders in the unit, whatever) or something unique that gives them a clear role. Even changing dodge to be "Against everything EXCEPT close combat attacks" suddenly means enemies are encouraged to charge the melee unit in an assault, and helps them do their job. (Indeed, I'd love to see what AP/Kirby would suggest as "If I were the designer/if I had my druthers" for Wyches to be viable, and then for a relevant upgrade to Blood Brides.)

There is no price you can put on "this one model that makes S 3 AP – attacks gets to re-roll failed attacks" (or Wounds) that makes you want to take it.

If you look real close at the new mechanics instead of whining like a little bitch you can see they actually did increase their survivability quite considerably.

I'll give you sometime to figure it out. It's okay. Most idiots haven't figured it out either. You have good company.

Do you mean the bit where they get an Invulnerable Save that only applies in the Fight Sub-Phase (thus not Overwatch, which is their real bane) and still won't kick in during the time where they're being shot at while running towards the combat?

Do you mean the bit where you ally with Chaos to put cheap Rhinos with Sirens all over the place to negate Overwatch? That's not actually an intrinsic feature of the DE.

Do you mean the bit where, when you get FnP, crowding around a slow-moving Chronos improves it to the old 4+ value?

Or has Power From Pain been changed (and not mentioned thus far) such that they do actually survive?

At any rate, no need to be a cunt about it. Go back to faeit or BoLS if you want to fellate GW and refuse to hear a bad word about them.

>> Go back to faeit or BoLS if you want to fellate GW and refuse to hear a bad word about them.

someone clearly doesn't read the BoLS comment section (or articles)=)

Hopefully no one here reads the BoLS comment section. It's better than YouTube, but not by enough to be worth bothering with.

Yeah, that's right, just throw those ad hominems out there. Don't let anyone mistake you for someone with a worthwhile opinion.

Yeah. You are the pinnacle of objective reasonable criticism AP.

"I may disagree with you on a lot of stuff, but you can't possibly be so stupid as to think that is the case. "


Sounds like power weapons on Sister Superiors in AS for 15 points. At WS3, S3, I3, A1 that is a horrible assault stat-line to add 15 points to (oh and you can throw another +10 points into the toilet to get +1A).

This is from the guy on Warseer, correct?
He said he did not see the unit entries, so there is probably more options in the unit entries. (For example, Scourges were the only ones with heat-lances in the armories, yet Reavers have the model for it, so probably in their entry).
He has put up some more info, search for: barjed

More stuff found on warseer (posted originally by barjed).

– I am now almost sure that Venom Blade can be taken on the Acothyst only. There are two different weapons table for Coven and non Coven units. Coven units get VB, ECW, Scissorhand, Flesh Gauntlet, Mindphase, and Agoniser. Out of these, VB and ECW can only be taken on the Acothyst. Non Coven units get Power Sword (no option for other types) and Agoniser, that's it. So I Imagine the old VBs of all the kits will now be Power Swords. Also, Heamy can no longer take Power Weapons (unless it's specified directly in his profile, I haven't seen it)
– Harlequins are gone from the codex
– Agoniser is now Poison 4+, still AP3, same cost
– Scissorhand is Poison 4+, Rending
– ECW is Poison 5+ (sic), AP3, Concussive and is also the most expensive of all Coven weapons
– Flesh Gauntlet is Poison 4+, ID on 6 To Hit
– PGL does NOT confer grenades anymore – I have not seen the Incubi profile page, so cannot say if they've gained grenades or not
– both PGL and TGL do not work against ATSKNF
– Monoscythe, Shatterfield and Necrotoxin missles haven't changed
– there are no new ranged weapons other than Ossefactor and Dark Scythe (24", S8, AP2, blast, only on Bomber), that info about AP2 blast for Talos also seems incorrect, I think someone confused Stinger Pod for it (which hasn't changed)
– Reaver save is still 5+, all HoW attacks are Rending, base is 1 S4 hit, Caltrops D6 S6, Grav is 1 S4 Concussive
– significant stat changes for Beasts: Khymeras are now S4/T4 (majority T4 for a Khymera pack!), Flocks are nerfed hard, now WS2 (!), A4, W3, Fiend is now WS3, W3 (so even worse than before)
– someone has a Power Lance (I can see it's profile in the summary) in the codex, but I have no specific unit pages so unsure. However, the most logical choice are Scourges, who have a polearm model option for the Solarite
– Cronos weapons stayed the same, they lost their additional support effects though, because Cronos now has a passive aura around itself (described in my prev. post). This is my conjecture but I think Talos and Cronos can be mixed in the same unit for a nice effect of 2 Taloi and a Cronos, with 4+ FnP on all of them
– Baleblast now indeed has Soul Blaze instead of Pinning. Mandrakes also lost their 5++, which means the leak about them having Stealth and Shrouded instead is almost certainly true
– I correct myself – Archon only boosts PfP turn number when fielded in the new DE detachment which also grants 5+ cover save for Troops and 6+ cover save for everything else on the first turn (but only if Night Fight occurs, lolz, so there is a chance your detachment will grant you nothing)
– Shock Prow now gives AV14 when ramming
– Chain Snares now let a vehicle Tank Shock but not Ram
– Splinter Cannons are Salvo 4/6 and got more expensive (so a double nerf)
– Someone in the codex has a Crucible of Malediction (most likely Haemy) – once per game, all Psyker units (Brotherhoods included) within 3D6" suffer a S6 hit with no saves of any kind allowed
– Artefacts are:
— Animus Vitae – already described this in my other post
— Archangel of Pain – once per game, all units within 9" test Ld with a -2 penalty, then take a wound with no cover/armor saves for each point they failed. Sounds great BUT this does not work against ATSKNF! What the hell!
— Armour of Misery – a Ghostplate with Fear and -2 Ld penalty to all enemy units within 6"
— Djin Blade – AP3, +2 Attacks, after all attacks roll D6, on 1 the bearer suffers a wound with no saves
— Helm of Spite – Adamantium Will for all friendly units within 12", Psykers within 12" suffer Perils on any double. This, imo, is the best out of the artefacts
— Parasite's Kiss – Pistol, Poison 2+, Master-crafted, after inflicting an unsaved wound, the bearer restores a single wound. Turbocrap.

I do sometimes wonder if GW somehow don't realise how prevailant Space Marine armies actually are. I wonder if Jervis is sitting somewhere frantically worried that people aren't playing Marines, and therefore making sure that rules don't work on them for Reasons.

Given they have access to the sales numbers, I'm sure they know exactly how popular Marines are. I think it's more of a "but Marines are such amazing Mary Sues that they need a special unique snowflake immunity to things" sort of mentality that is the problem.

Although I'm more than willing to believe plenty of it ("Look, we're pimping the Wrack models, make sure non-Haemie choices are shit!", awful WL traits and relics, "simplifying" certain things like bladevanes and chain snares), overall I'm guessing this is all just made up as a trolling exercise. Particularly the "Does Not Work on Space Marines" stuff feels really weird – that's the bit I can't really believe.

I'm waiting for 8th edition where ATSKNF is changed to "Space Marines are not in any way subject to the morale rules. Models with this special rule ignore pages 86-93 entirely."

That's Fearless and now Zealot. Models with ATSKNF are still subject to morale and pinning tests. They also lost the 3" consolidate on top of regular movement. They still automatically fail morale tests if they're falling back too. Meanwhile, Fearless and Zealot models actually do ignore most of the morale rules.

Yes, but they pay for it. ATSKNF is essentially free.

And note, while Fearless ignores the Morale rules, ATSKNF invalidates most of the more crippling ones anyway…AND (and this is the point here) keeps popping up as a random immunity to thinks for Some Reason.

Because apparently Space Marine Indoctrination makes you immune to liquid terror created by the preminant masters of fear in all existence, but being an incarnation of bloodlust doesn't.

Given how long it's been since I last played, I can't recall any such thing. The last time I saw ATSKNF specifically called out was for some Gargantuan Creature that had "Must take a Morale Test at -X blah blah blah, by the way Stubborn and ATSKNF have no effect".

Now I'm not completely unable to believe they'd do this. We've seen how happy they are to release a completely half-arsed book that is just "the old one, with some relics and warlord traits scribbled on in crayon, half the pages torn out, and randomly assigned point values that mostly make the whole thing worse". And I can see them haphazardly making "everything-except-the-new-models" shit in an effort to make people buy those, it's not the first time they've done that.

But overall, it just comes across as a fake. Maybe I'm not cynical enough, time will tell.

I think it was great. And They Shall Know No Fear was already vulnerable to morale and pinning. Plus the game needs a Fearless-breaker.

Wow, I wasn't aware of that. That's pretty lame.

I mean, I knew Fear was stupid anyway, because every unit that actually *wants* to charge you has some variant of Fearless, except what, Orks? Bog-standard unupgraded Chaos Marines? I didn't realise that even "We don't really do much assaulting as our specialty, it's just something we can do against gunlines, with WS 4 S 4" Marines get flat-out immunity.

Seems a bit sktechy that the guy posting these rules keeps noting he hasn't even seen the Codex entries. There's not much point commenting on an incomplete picture of the Codex.

All the DE players cheering as Psyflemen and Psybacks were utterly gutted dies in their throats, the victim of that most awful of ironies.

hell, at this point my opinion of Orkz is changing from "finally, a decent new codex" to "dodged a bullet there"

Let's wait until we see the new book.

Ork rumors were really, really negative, and then people said "oh, this other stuff… got cheap and good while we weren't looking" when the actual book hit. SW, the rumors were really really negative, and then people said "oh, this other stuff… got cheap and good while we weren't looking" when the actual book hit. GK was criminally undercosted to start with and so this didn't happen. But so far, we're 2 for 3 for books coming out with some obvious nerfs and then other things mostly making it up in value.

This does KIND OF suck because it means people with complete, tourney-ready armies generally need to rejigger everything (doesn't affect me, I buy models I like even if they suck on the tabletop… but I'm odd.) And the cheaper stuff gets, the harder it is to balance, because even a point or two too expensive on the options is enough to wreck a unit when it starts at seven or eight PPM anyway. But it's not like GW balances the expensive stuff any better…

We'll see in a week.

i think the problem is they turned out pretty much the same as they used to be, except with two new flyers and a daft chariot for logan. the book was kind of pointless since it didnt really change the army at all, nevermind buffing or nerfing it.

Eh, I wouldn't call the SW codex awful- it did at least get new units (Stormwolf/fang, Grimnar's ride) and it updated many of the units- especially Blood Claws, Thunderwolves, Iron Priests, and a few others- to be worth using. Sadly, it also nerfed Grey Hunters and did nothing to fix some of the perennially-useless choices (Land Raiders, Whirlwinds, Fenrisian Wolves, etc) and continued the trend of cutting down significantly on options and making lackluster warlord/relic choices.

Orks win out due to superior warlord/relic tables (they have, in fact, some of the best in the game) and excellent formation options; taken down to just the units, I would call Orks and SW rather on par with each other overall, although the "new" Ork units are actually quite weak, unlike the SW ones.

That's shocking, especially since the ork warlord table is almost strictly worse than the Command Traits table from the BRB. The only thing that's actually good on that table is Prophet of the Waaagh!, which is balanced out by the completely useless +1S trait and two traits doing nothing on the extremely powerful MA Stikk Warboss.

I would generally roll on the Command table, yeah, but the Ork table is actually pretty good as well in many cases. Prophet of the Waagh makes you Fearless for a turn, which is quite good; Bellowing Tyrant is amazing and significantly better than sharing Ld within 12'; Like a Thunderbolt is probably better than +1" charges; the last three are largely blanks, but so are several of the Command results (reroll 1s to hit with shooting, enemy uses lowest Ld) so that's not all that different.

Like a thunderbolt is worse than +1" charge (and run), due to orks already having 'ere we go. Re-rolling one dice and adding +1" averages to a charge range of 9.23", re-rolling one or two dice averages to 8.5". Not to mention the utility of a higher minimum and maximum charge range.

Bellowing Tyrant is strictly worse than sharing ld9, since it only works on morale and pinning, not on fear, psychic powers, regroup tests, etc – plus the fact that ld7 with a re-roll (82.63%) is slightly worse than ld9 anyways (83.33%). I fail to see how it is suppose to be "amazing and significantly better". In a marine army, sure, but not in an army where everyone but your warlord will be ld7 or worse.

Re-rolling 1 to hit also applies to all other mobs within 12", and due to the high rate of fire of orks, it produces quite a few additional wounds. A unit of 20 shoota boyz scores two more hits from that trait, a unit of 15 tank-bustas gets another hit most of the time. While not exactly the best one from the chart, a couple of re-rolls across multiple units is way better than a single re-roll for a warlord that might already be able to re-roll anyways.

Enemy using lowest LD is a dud, but that's what the CAD re-roll is for. Still slightly better than +1S on a S10 model if you ask me, since little chance to do anything at least beats zero chance to do anything.

As I said, Prophet of the Waaagh! is great, but not great enough to roll on a table with three terrible traits in it, when there is another table which does the only other two good traits better.

Warriors are 8 points, hellions are 13 points, wyches are still 10 points
check the dracon edition for the data cards

the one card for wyches at 50 points has an arm with a wych dagger, another has the kabalite warrior sybarite sword and lists 40 points and hellions are 65 for 5 if minimums are still same so 13 points, that's two price reductions and some cheery news!

incubi are same cost but min 5 man, mandrakes went up a point, talos went up 20 points, all from the pictures in the dracon edition if my eyes don't deceive me

the leaked photo that somehow matches the pain engines was ruled out … the upper right sides don't match …. giving the chance that they may not be 110-120

That is a talos even though I am aware the metal bits up top don't match up, that head arm and posture are the talos, the 110 is the new sword end of the incubi, confirmed with some of the archon picks that are around surrounded by them

As a Tyranid player I'm interested only in how Venomspam is affected. Seems it's better than ever, no? Only Venoms get Flickerfield and I guess poison and number of shots stays the same, and they can still move and shoot as before. Splinter cannons more expensive sounds good though – how much?

Considering we know almost nothing about stat lines, the full PfP mechanic, and point cost, a lot of this nerf talk seems pretty fucking premature. Of course, that's par for the course in this hobby I suppose.

The PfP does sound like a nice buff to me for the army. Army wide bonuses for the rest of the game for all units with each round not only providing a new bonus but getting to keep the previous bonuses and stacking the new on.

Don't get me wrong, some of the other stuff sounds like nerfing, but if some of the points costs are lowered then they are still probably at least OK if not even good with some builds. Talos now being multiple models can have a IC attached and the T7 W3 3+ with FNP sounds pretty badass by itself, then add in an IC.

IC can no longer join MC, even if they are a unit. I don't think even IC MC can join units of MC.

And a thousand HH players rejoiced that an Archmagos could no longer lead a pack of Castellax.

I just don't understand some people. Before people cried that codexes are overpowered. Now when they are coming out balanced, they are yelling that they are bland and boring. People, bland and boring equals balanced, make up your minds! 30k is so balanced because everyone is a medicore marine!

You simply have to start the process of toning down at some point. This approach GW has taken is far more better than just adding more helldrakes and riptides to codexes, which would keep the power creep going. Orks, Space Wolves and Grey Knights do nothing against Eldar, but against each other they are more or less equal.

Dark Eldar where considered a balanced army prior to this though. So there is no real need to tone or water them down further.

Overpowered and bland are not mutually exclusive or opposite ends of a spectrum. A codex can be bland, overpowered, both, or neither.

The complaint is not that "this book isn't as good as Eldar thererfore it sucks"- because that would be a ridiculous metric to judge by. (Having _counters_ to Serpents is pretty critical to books these days, but that is another matter entirely.) The complaint is "these books are very bland because options are being removed and nothing is being put in to replace them." Taking out Vect or Malys doesn't make the book more balanced- it only makes it more boring.

I guess I am just a bit silly then. I look at the rumours and I see more interesting pain token mechanic, many units I like becoming either more interesting or at least usable compared to rubbish they were before, and wargear which I might actually use, besides the two or three autopics that there were previously.

Everyone to their own I suppose.

The pain token mechanic is fine as a thing overall (it removes a lot of bookkeeping, which is good.) Other than maybe thinking the progression is a bit weak overall compared to the previous version, there's nothing wrong with it per se- adjusting the relative strength of various mechanics is a perfectly fine thing.

As far the useability of units, I don't really see anything that improves most of them. (Though obviously we don't know point costs and such.) Stuff like Reavers losing their flyby and DE and a lot of the unique wargear becoming much more "standard" doesn't seem encouraging to me.

From a guy that claims to have the book:

Venom = almost same, cannot take +1 stealth
Razorwing: fast attack, 130 with dissis, +10 for dark lances
Bomber = 160 + cost of missiles. I don't see any reasin to purchase a bomber over a Razorwing. Void mine is 5" blast
No board or bike for Archon
Scourges: 16 points each, can have 4 weapons regardless of size
Incubi: 20 points, no granades
Reavers: 16 points each, can leave combat
Witches: 10 points
Kabalites: 8 points
Talos: 120, units of 1-3
Cronos: 100 units 1-3
Hemie: 70 (Uses Ancient Haemonculus stats)
Mandrakes: 12
Hellions: 13, no granades
Trueborn can have 4 weapons plus 2 heavies, but no carbines.

Until I have the codex in hand, Im not going to stress. And at the end of the day, the model range is still pretty enough to make me want to collect them.

Step1: Read the book, not the rumors
Step2: Build an army
Step3: Playtest
Step4: Alter army
Step5: Get better, scrub.

Im off to paint tramp stamps on all my wyches.

I started building a new DE army a couple of months ago (with the Duke too!!!!), after getting rid of most of my Orks, and then i stopped as the rumours of a new codex coming. I'm gonna wait until the Coven book drops and then figure out a list and see if i want to continue building the army.

I should've just stuck with a GodZilla Nid army that i've been wanting to do…..

Dark Eldar are really worth your effort. This new codex takes away a lot but gives a lot of new possibilities (Portal, Fast Attack Transport shenanigans, Beefy Fnp for Talos/Cronos, all Sslyth Court of the Archon, very good warlord trait nr 2 & 6, Ossefactor, good anti-psyker artifacts etc.).

Tyranids are not as strong as they once were.

Oh i know, i'm waiting for the full release, no sense in jumping off the bridge before i know what is what.

I haven't invested much into DE as of yet, a battleforce, extra Raider, venom, and a Razorwing is all i have for now, and i still have a few hundred dollars of Orks i can still sell. (surprisingly, i'm down to 30 boyz total from 250…..)

In my last battle against Grey Knights + Imperial Knight I used the "empty transport" tactic. I fielded 9 empty venoms so when the Nemesis formation came they had nobody to toast, and did only minor damage to the Venoms. Turn 2 I got out of the reserves with almost all of my 6 kabalite warrior units and 3 kabalite trueborn units to poison GK into oblivion and Deep Striked 4 units of Legion of the Damned with 12 Ignore Cover meltas to shot off the Titan in 1 turn. I think a similiar tactic would be possible with the new codex, only to change the LotD into couple of units of Blasterborn getting out of the portals with no scatter to kill the Knight.

As a long time DE player I can say the following:
1) Meh on the loss of special characters
2) new voidraven, per the rules, simply will not be seen on the tabletop – 160pts for a single bomb on an AV10 platform, then you buy the bombs??? meh
3) new PFP SEEMS to make assaulting even worse – a T2 assault by wyches used to be able to count on 4+ cover (5+ from actual cover +1 from PGL) then 5+ FNP, now its only 6+ FNP and we have to see about what the PGL does…
4) change to huskblade – meh, you didn't actually FIGHT tough models did you? That's what poison shooting and/or dark lances are for…
5) changes to reavers is aweful if they're keeping their (lack of) 5+ save… hit & run simply wont help since your squad will be destroyed before they get the chance to flee…
6) … everything else…. find out in 1 or 2 days I guess.

lots of rumors on BoLS right now…. AND my optimism is shot.

In my history I've been through a new Chaos codex and was pleased (apparently I'm the minority=}; the last new dark eldar codex and was pleased; a new vampire counts armybook in fantasy and was pleased…. the trend had to end I guess.

"3) new PFP SEEMS to make assaulting even worse – a T2 assault by wyches used to be able to count on 4+ cover (5+ from actual cover +1 from PGL) then 5+ FNP, now its only 6+ FNP and we have to see about what the PGL does… "

Keep in mind you had to pay 50 points for the 5+ FNP before, now you get the 6+ for free T2 and 5+ for free T3. That's a pretty massive difference (more then 5 points per model difference).

Close – keep in mind that you had to pay 50 points for the minimum 1 HQ you HAD to take, who just happened to provide FNP. So those 50 points killed 2 birds with one stone. Now we'll still have to buy an HQ, but get to trade the 5+ localized FNP for a 6+ (and nothing to survive incoming fire turn one)

There's LOADS more stuff floating around now that a couple of people have the book – Shadowfields now work until the end of the phase in which you failed the save, which is pretty huge, Grotesques are the same but don't kill your own dudes, have Rampage and a 4+ Poison weapon that ID's on 6s. Voidraven has the large blast bomb and two blast Dark Lances. 5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters sets you back 120pts, which seems pretty good. Can't mix Talos and Cronos in the same unit. Webway Portal is now no scatter on the deep strike for the bearer, his unit and their transport, it seems. Wyches don't get Haywire Grenades, only the Hekatrix. Razorwing is 130pts, 5pts to exchange each Disintegrator to a Dark Lance, more for Missiles. Archon is WS7, Succubus is WS6, which I'm pretty sure is a pip lower than their old versions and makes the +1 WS Trait completely worthless (WS7 to WS8 isn't a functional difference unless you're fighting Abaddon or Ghazghkull in a unit with a Waaagh! Banner or something, at which point you're dead anyway). Liquifiers still AP D6. Raiders and Venoms both 55pts base, which is nice for Raiders I guess but everyone inside still dies when they explode. Trueborn and Bloodbrides are unit upgrades, +3pts per model and they switch slot to Elites. Court of the Archon is 1-12 of any of the four types of dude who can be in the court (and Medusae now have a Str4 AP3 flamer, so bringing a bunch of those in a Raider that doesn't scatter could be an okay plan I guess). Combat Drugs are stat increases as far as we know – presumably 1 through 6 on a d6 being WS, S, T, I, A and Ld respectively. Shredder has Shred, funnily enough, which probably isn't enough to make you want it but it's something. Implosion Missiles are just Str6 AP2 Blast. Ethersails let you Flat Out 24".

That's just some random stuff, there's more around the web.

Grotesques are pretty amazing now. Flesh Gaunts, Rampage standard, and lost the kill themselves rule.