8th Edition Battle Report – 1500 pts, Tau vs Orks

How long has it been since once of these!?

We are still missing a few rules it looks like but what ever stopped us from doing things early!? We decided to give 8th a go just to try out some lists and get the feel of the game. I really wanted to see how the new Drone mechanics work and try out the Sunshark bomber and Vinsanity just did not want to play Tau. So I picked Tau.

Be prepared for mistakes but I’ll try and cover them off if I notice we did them. Lists after the break.

And sorry for some blurry pictures – Macro kept turning off…

I took the following:

Longstrike with Ion Cannon, Smart Missile Systems
Cadre Fireblade

4x Crisis Suits w/2x Missile Pods and ATS each
Riptide w/Heavy Burst Cannon, SMS, ATS, Target Lock

2x10x Kroot
11x Kroot
6x Fire Warriors
6x Fire Warriors w/2 Gun Drones

6x Pathfinders w/Grav Drone, 2x Shield Drones
6x Pathfinders w/Pulse Drone, 2x Shield Drones

Sunshark Bomber

Totals: 1500 points, 6 CP
2 vehicles, 60 ‘infantry’, 8 Drones and 1 MC

Edit: I have one too many Crisis Suits in this list so was playing basically 100 points up >.<.

Vinsanity took:

Warboss in Mega Armor, Kombi Skorcha, Power Klaw
Big Mek on Warbike, KFF

3x Meganobz, 3 Kustoma Shoota, 3 Power Klaws

3x12x Boyz w/Nob w/Power Klaw
3x Trukk w/Big Shoota
20x Boyz w/Nob w/Power Klaw
10x Gretchin

2x Battlewagon w/Deffrolla, Big Shoota

Mission

First off the bat going to play rulebook missions despite their glaring issues. We rolled up Secure and Control (one objective each) on Cleanse deployment. Not using Maelstrom because a) don’t have the cards so keeping track is tedious and b) while I enjoy their concept I find them too random, even with a strategic re-roll. We randomly rolled for deployment rather than let losing player of a roll-off pick, it’s a slight deviation from rulebook but given tournaments will not use this was comfortable making this choice. Rolled Cleanse anyway which was probably the best deployment option for Orks.

Deployment

I won the roll-off and picked a corner which gave me the best LoS around the middle ruin (there were some windows) and didn’t give Vince much terrain to use (not that it mattered with KFF). Alternating deployment was really a wash here. Vince deployed Trukks and Mek in the middle with Wagons (holding Gretchin, Nobz and Warboss in one and 20 Boyz in the other) on the flanks. My Kroot deployed in two waves and a secondary wave to protect a fast outflank on the left with the Pathfinders and Fire Warriors secure in ruins. Drones in the middle near Longstrike to hide and support Crisis Suits as needed. They weren’t going to be much use as ablative wounds except in combat this game. My objective was in the back corner of my deployment zone behind the ruins while Orks was underneath where the Trukks started.

Orks choose to go first and I attempted to seize, failing. Kroot moved forward.

Orks Turn 1 – 

Orks move up and around the Ruins with one Trukk staying tucked away behind. The Mek goes on the opposite flank of the Battlewagon with the Boss / Nobz and a trukk and left Battlewagon get into combat with the Kroot, killing a handful with Morale taking one more. The Battlewagon on the right with all the Boyz attempts a 6″ charge on the Kroot but fails even with a Command Point re-roll, losing 3 wounds to Overwatch. Big Shootas and Pistols all shot at Drones or Fire Warriors – lost two shield Drones and a Gun Drone but kept the important Pulse and Grav drones and three Fire Warriors (1 from Morale). Cover makes these guys tougher than they appear.

I feel the Orks needed to be more aggressive. I could not stop a full move + Advance around the first Ork line and getting the Battlewagon(s) and Trukks closer to me would have made Kroot walling a lot harder. As it was, the Orks basically drove up to the Kroot and hammered them rather than trying to get around them or engage the second line. The second Battlewagon did fail a 6″ charge but even with a D6 re-roll, it’s not outside the realm of possibility. This left both Kroot lines intact with only vehicles in combat (i.e. minimal damage potential even with Deffrollas).

Tau Turn 1 –

Orks had their mistakes, now Tau will make some. Let the front line Kroot fall back but kept their line intact, stalling the middle Orks further (only needing to be 1″ away from the enemy gives you a lot of flexibility here. If the Orks had let out some Boyz, they could have potentially surrounded a single model to prevent this. Second line of Kroot on the right moved up to further block the Orks on that flank while remaining spread out to ensure For the Greater Good had lots of juicy options but my other Kroot remained stationary when I should have started to bring them over. The Sunshark flew over the battlefield without anything fun to poke and did a Mortal wound to the leftmost Battlewagon. Everything else repositions for optimum shooting with the Burstide skipping up the left flank. Shooting time!

Pathfinders, Sunshark and Fireblade all used their Markerlights. Fireblade goes first to drop a Markerlight on target 1 (in this case the right most Battle Wagon), followed by the Sunshark on Target 2 (the left most Battlewagon). Pathfinders then wave fire at each target (3 apiece) and I get five hits on the right most and four on the leftmost. This gives me the greatest chance to ensure re-rolling 1’s for my Pathfinders but also flexibility if I whiff a roll to load up all the pathfinders on one target to ensure it gets 5+ markerlights. I may take a second Fireblade in the future for this as a 2+ markerlight is nice… Anyway. Here’s where I make some mistakes in terms of shooting order and not having a full grasp of vehicle durability or the damage function of some weapons (i.e. Ion Cannon and Missile Pods). Because of this, and being greedy, I’m thinking leave the Missile Crisis and Burstide to the end. This leaves the right most Battlewagon still on seven wounds before they go (silly KFF saves on the Ion Cannon) so I unload all of the Crisis Suits into the same target and very easily destroying it (First Blood to Tau, 1VP; about half the boyz then died from the explosion and Morale). The Burstide then does two wounds to the left most battlewagon.

By leaving the Crisis Suits and Burstide to last, a lot more my efficient firepower was wasted plinking wounds off the Battlewagon when I could have had a bunch more shooting wipe out that Boyz squad. My Markerlights should also have been split across the Battlewagon and Trukk allowing the Burstide to either delete a Boyz squad if the Ionhead could destroy it or delete the Trukk rather than hoping for 5s against the Battlewagon. First shooting phase of 8th edition, many lessons.

 

Orks Turn 2 –

Because the Orks have not attempted to move around the Kroot in Turn 1 or unload any Boyz, they are still stuck behind the Kroot wall and again do not try and move around. This leads to a wall of Green and mangled metal wiping out both Kroot squads (with Morale) but still having not engaged the Tau main army and about to suffer another round of shooting. The Big Mek has moved into the middle of the table to cover the entire army.

Ork shooting did drop the final Gun Drone and remaining members of the reduced Fire Warrior squad.

Tau Turn 2 –

This is where the Kroot having not moved last turn are now out of position and a poor Advance roll leaves them well short of the necessary coverage so the Fire Warriors in the ruins fall back to ensure the Orks are dealing with -2″ of charge time. The Ionhead keeps his butt in a nice position as well so the Grav drone will make any Orks that get too close suffer -D3″ as well. The Burstide keeps moving up the left flank. Sunshark flies over dismebarked Boyz and kills a handful and then I incorrectly pivot the flyer again so he’s pointing in the wrong direction.

Markerlight waves light up the remaining Battlewagon and the middle Trukk – I am very unlikely to have the firepower to drop the Trukk as I’ll want to put damage on the Meganobz after the jump out but again, I did not do target priority right here and should have had the Burstide delete something rather than plink off a Wound. Anyway, Missile Crisis go first this time (wisely) and pop the Battlewagon pretty easily. The Ionhead then drops two of the Meganobz and puts a couple of Wounds on the middle Trukk with the Burstide taking another ineffectual Wound off the Meganobz (silly me) rather than trusting the Kroot wall. Fire Warriors do some incidental damage to the Trukk even though some of them could have shot the disembarked Boyz (forgetting each unit can Split Fire!).

The game hangs in the balance here – there’s still 36 Boyz in Trukks and my right flank is open to the charge…

Orks Turn 3 –

Very wisely (IMO) only the central Trukk drops their payload of Boyz rather than all 36 (which would have given me lots of targets) and the Gretchin hop in. Everything else moves up and finally the Orks start to go around the flanks (though I think the Gretchin trukk should have high tailed it back to their objective). Incidental shooting kills a Pathfinder. The Meganob, Big Mek and Warboss all converge on the Kroot line while the right most Trukk and Boyz on foot move towards the Fire Warriors. Both squads get deleted including the Fireblade (well kroot have 3 models left) with the Ork characters illegally stepping back in their consolidate moves to avoid being shot while the Boyz on the right moved into the Crisis Suits and Ionhead.

Tau Turn 3 –

Luckily Tau fly so no shooting will be lost on the right flank and even though I illegally pivoted the Sunshark last turn, he could still fly over the disembarked Boyz to kill four (he just ends up 20 degrees further north than he should be). The Burstide starts to move into the middle of the board from my left flank while the Crisis Suits and Ionhead jump into the middle of the scrum to target the characters (which should have been a bit further forward but I digress). The weakened unit of Pathfinders along with the remaining Drones form a body wall on the right hand side of the Suits and Ionhead to force shooting on them if the Orks want to engage the more important units.

Another option here was just moving backwards and leaving a unit of Pathfinders strung out in front of the ruins. This would have likely most me both Pathfinder squads but would not have put the Crisis Suits or Ionhead in harms way. I could have likely then destroyed at least one more Trukk, maybe two, and the Boyz inside and left the Big Mek to a later turn without Markerlight Support.

With less markerlight support, shooting sees all the Boyz on foot reduced to two remaining, the Big Mek killed and the Meganob gone. The Warboss passed three saves from the Ionhead keeping him alive and on full wounds while the left most Trukk survived with a couple of Wounds remaining. I elected not to charge.

Orks Turn 4 – 

I forgot pictures from here on out sorry!

The Boyz are unleashed. The remaining 24 Boyz get out and surround the Tau firebase with shooting finally dropping the Grav and Pulse drones along with the remaining Kroot. A big multi-combat ensues with every Ork unit charging, Trukks first to absorb Overwatch firepower which kills the leftmost Trukk which Explodes! causing Mortal Wounds all around (one on the Ionhead, one on Crisis, three on Gretchin, two on Orks nearby, 2 on Pathfinders). I used two Command Points to allow the Crisis to go first which killed a handful of Boyz and reduced the incoming attacks there.

Combat sees the Pathfinders protecting the Ionhead on the right deleted and multiple Power Klaws hacking into the Ionhead, taking him down to four wounds remaining (phew). Attacks off the Crisis Suits bounce off. Gretchin were wiped out.

Tau Turn 4 – 

Thankfully with Fly and my Ionhead having 4 wounds left (ergo 6″ move instead of 3″), everything moved out of combat with the Orks. All the remaining Boyz were deleted but the Warboss again passed multiple 4+ saves from the Ionhead to have three wounds remaining. The Burstide continued on its merry way towards the Ork objective.

Ork Turn 5 – 

Trukks and Warboss charge the Ionhead (Slay the Warlord to Orks, 1VP), killing it which Explodes! which kills the Warboss (Slay the Warlord to Tau, 2VP). Talk about Slaying the Warlord…

Tau Turn 5 – 

Burstide moves onto objective (Linebreaker to Tau, 3VP), Tau delete two Trukks, tabling the Orks and hold both objectives (Two objectives to Tau, 9 VP).

Tau Victory – 9 VP to 1 VP.

Conclusion

A lot of things to discuss here – including some rules errors.

  • Having only ever used a single flyer before (Stormraven), getting my flyer pivots wrong was a bit silly as they are largely the same rules. Pivoting twice did not really change the game as he would have continued flying in the diamond formation but the extra degrees here and there would have been a much bigger issue if the units weren’t neatly lined up for me.
  • Characters are a pain in the ass to access and the combat movement mechanics, while simple, are really open ended and vague in many circumstances with moves that seem RAW but are counter-intuitive. Expect a post on this once the official release has been done.
  • There were a few times I fired by Sunshark and Ionhead without the -1 for heavy weapons which is going to be an easy thing to forget. Not a huge issue as I don’t recall any of those hits missing but something that’s going to be very easy to forget for vehicles. I also fired my Ionhead re-rolling 1’s not reading Longstrikes rule correctly. Luckily each time he did roll a 1 I think I had a markerlight hit on the target but I also would have been very less liberal with Overcharging that Ion.

Those are all the rule booboos I can think of…

So onto the actual analysis!

Orks made several errors in the way they handled the Kroot wall I believe and while it was always going to be effective, it was too effective, even with my mistake on the third Kroot unit. Breaking bubble-wrap is going to be a whole different ballgame (except another post on this) and very, very important to make combat effective. I’ve already seen a couple of games on Vassal where people are just lining units up next to each other. Tau have Fly which is huge for escaping combat and shooting but, while combat may not be as deadly as it has been made out to be (not having +1A for charging or two weapons is huge), it can drastically impact the opponent’s shooting output. That being said, I felt under pressure from Turn 1 from Combat and although I was dictating engagements, the overall strategy was being dictated by the Orks. A few more appropriate moves and flanking speed, and this could have been a lot tighter affair.

That being said as well, combat is not going to win games by itself. You need shooting (see future post about breaking bubble-wrap). My Burstide, Ionhead and Crisis Suits were under no shooting pressure ever and while the Ionhead eventually dropped to combat, with Power Klaws only doing D3 damage, he is able to soak a minimum of five PK hits (4s to hit, 3s to wound); that’s a lot of PK attacks needed.

Command Points were not amazing but great for a handful of re-rolls and the one time I activated Crisis out of sequence in the Fight phase. I’d really like to see more specialised Command Points from army books in the future but I wouldn’t bend over backwards to get the Brigade FoC at this point in time. One re-roll per phase is nice and limiting – you can ensure you’re maximising your chances on that very important roll but aren’t going to be re-rolling everything.

Jury is still out for me on the Riptide. He struggled against vehicles but was great against Ork boyz. The Sunshark seemed like it provided more even though it only ever once got to drop a Pulse Bomb on a unit of 10+ and mortal wounds against Orks aren’t exactly that important (compared to say MEQ models). Crisis Suits though, hands down just did damage. KFF reduced a lot of the impact ATS would have had but they obliterated what they shot at. I hate we cannot take units of 2 anymore, even with split fire the unit just feels weird, but they are I think my replacement for Missilesides. Missilesides are certainly up there with the number of shots but 200 points and -1 to shoot if you move compared to the firepower of 3 Crisis Suits heavily favours the Crisis IMO at this point in time – my tune may change.

Anyway, from this one battle I feel Tau are in a good place, lots more to experiment with. Orks felt fine too, just not the best list out of the gate but again, I was under pressure from the getgo. 8th felt a much smoother game and the most time was spent running back to the computer to check model stats or Tau overwatch (still).

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123 Responses to “8th Edition Battle Report – 1500 pts, Tau vs Orks”

  1. Prometheus says:

    Ion Accelerator is where it's at, just saying. (Maybe not against orks)

    • Kirby says:

      I think it's way too expensive, it's a great weapon but the D6 shots make me hesitant. I'm thinking of just dropping the Riptide all together and if I want a big scary shooting MC, grabbing a Stormsurge. Less range, more damage and durable.

      • Prometheus says:

        You're probably thinking 55 pts for a Heavy Burst Cannon vs 107 for the Ion Accelerator, a 95% increase. But that's not the right math. Math you want to be thinking about is 284 (including Base Riptide and burst cannons, cheapest secondary) vs 336, only an 18% increase.

        Ion Accelerator does a lot more heavy lifting. And killing light to medium troops isn't what you bring the riptide for, you have ton of other things that can do that.

        And here's the thing about the stormsurge: Not actually more durable. It has the same toughness and 6 more wounds, BUT it is a vehicle, and the Riptide is a Battlesuit, meaning that you can dump wounds from the Riptide onto nearby drones (including shield drones) that you can't from the stormsurge. It even has a worse save! (Also, I think the only really good gun on the Stormsurge is the Pulse Blast Cannon and that's just way too short ranged)

        I think the Riptide's going to kick a lotta butt, but I can understand thinking it's too expensive. But I think Heavy Burst means you're being less efficient, not more. And I think the Riptide is ironically a lot easier to keep alive.

        • Kirby says:

          I'm looking at total cost not an increase in cost. It's expensive.

          Ya Riptide wound dumping is very important but also you're wounding yourself every turn to Novacharge. I find the Riptide's biggest asset is its mobility and being able to get outside of the normal Tau firebase (same with Crisis Suits) which I'm having issue with re drones now.

          The Pulse Blast Cannon is awesome – short ranged but even at the 20" range on average does a ton of damage.

          • Prometheus says:

            But ya gotta be close….and then come the meltas.

            As to Nova-charge, how many rounds do you figure you have to use it, 3 or 4? When you're dumping wounds, should be enough.

            Drones have 8" move and should be able to keep up, no?

            • Kirby says:

              Yes the low range is a threat factor.

              Every turn. There won't be enough drones to drop all of the wounds and I'm not worried about the Drones keeping up, I'm worried about army coherency, etc. and this makes the drones a lot easier to target depending upon terrain compared to hiding behind some tanks, etc.

        • ShadarLogoth says:

          With at least some things being a Vehicle is superior. The weapons formerly known as poison weapons come to mind.

  2. Coyote81 says:

    I can't find where it saw only one reroll per phase, I heard it said before, still yet to find it in the rules.

    • abusepuppy says:

      In the Matched Play section, it notes that you can only use each of the Stratagems once per phase (though you can activate more than one Stratagem in a phase if you want.)

  3. Kadeton says:

    Trying to get my head out of the "Trukks drive forward, Boyz jump out, crumping ensues" mentality is going to take a few games, I think.

    The relative safety and mobility that a KFF Big Mek on a bike enjoys is very nice – obviously you don't want to get sniped, but I'd expect to see a lot of those.

    I feel like three wounds on a Battlewagon via Overwatch is pretty unlucky, not to mention failing the easy charge with a reroll.

    Good to have the report!

    • abusepuppy says:

      Three wounds is obviously above average, but them's the dice- sometimes they good, sometimes they bad.

      The Mek on Bike with KFF is gonna be very useful, for sure. Characters like him are one reason that Snipers of one sort or another are pretty clutch.

      • Prometheus says:

        I haven't seen a sniper unit yet that can really take down something like that. (haven't read everything yet) Sniper drones at str 5, sniper scouts at str 4 (but usually higher BS) but they have no AP. Eversor is worse in someways, because he hits and wounds great but only has one shot that does D3 wounds (D6 on a 6 to wound). So we're talking ~3 rounds to take out a midsize character (meaning Ork and SM lords and the like).

        Sniper teams could take out something like a commissar fairly quickly. And that's useful & important! But it's also niche enough I don't really think it's worth taking a sniper unit for.

        • wellspokenman says:

          It's worth noting as well that if you'd don't leave the HQ out in the open and the Sniper unit has to move into position to take the shot they are -1 to hit from moving.

          • Prometheus says:

            Well, not for Tau Sniper Drones. But yeah, I haven't seen any sniper units that could take out a "typical" character.

            • akorndr2 says:

              vindicare assassin wyi

            • Kirby says:

              A sniper drone team with DC, Fireblade and Marksman bonus does an average of 10-12 wounds on T3-4 at rapid fire range. 5W though for most basic of characters that have anything better than a 4+ save is going to be hard to bring down in one turn and that's still an expensive investment. It'll reliably put the scare into Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG / AM, Ork, etc. characters but Chaos / Space Marine will laugh most of it off. I'm going to give it a go in the next battle and see if the investment is worth it. I'm already taking a Fireblade anyway so its just the 200 odd for the Snipers and Marksman and even if they are not sniping characters, they still get 3 shots at RF range with the Fireblade and you get a durable Markerlight from the Marksman.

              • abusepuppy says:

                Do note that the Fireblade doesn't give a bonus to the Drones- he affects a specific set of Pulse weapons, of which the Longshot is not on the list.

                • Kirby says:

                  Ah shit ya – ignore the above math then.

                  Can we just pretend longshot pulse rifle is still a pulse rifle ;)?

                  • Prometheus says:

                    Even if it did, it would only be giving a bonus at 24", a little short for that.

                    We're talking about killing 50 pt characters here, not the big (or medium, even) boys you have to worry about. Is that worth it? I don't think so.

                    • Kirby says:

                      Some of those characters are really important though – Commissars for example can keep huge amounts of IG just sticking around, Big Meks can reduce the average efficiency of most Tau weapons by 16-33%, etc. I was totally banking on the extra shot though and considering them pulse rifles so that is a big math modifier I need to re-evaluate with.

                    • Prometheus says:

                      I'm not saying they're not (I even cited Commissars, somewhere) but is it worth investinga few hundred points into? I'm betting not.

                      And I don't think you're ever going to kill a Mek on a bike (or SM Captains, or even the ancients) in a time frame that's going to really help you.

                      Realistically, I think you have a better chance of shooting up there with something mobile (probably Bikes, often, prianhas) and shooing the Mek in the face.

                    • Kadeton says:

                      Yeah, one of the outcomes of this edition is that characters are clearly meant to die in, or very close to, melee. Get something like an Emperor's Champion or Deathwing Champion into those beefy enemy characters and they'll be gone in the blink of an eye. Shoot at them, and they'll probably stick around all game.

                      Personally, I think that's great. It's actually a very clever way to bring some balance to shooting-heavy armies, and avoids all those sucky moments where your favourite character gets punked out by a lucky shot halfway across the field.

                    • Kirby says:

                      It stops the single biggest annoying thing from 6th and 7th edition – wound soaking and taking 5 minutes to Look out Sir! everything (which of course lead to the death stars with the USR transfer). I'm very pleased with the change and making even your beat stick characters do something for the army.

                      Agree through Prom – it might not be the best investment but I'm going to try it out.

                      *hopes for a FAQ for Longshot Pulse rifle to be a pulse rifle* lol

                    • Prometheus says:

                      Yeah, and I think Kadeton is right, too: Characters are meant to smash face (even Tau commanders engage in close) and the specifically constructed this edition so your favorite beatstick isn't going to get shot from across the field before he gets to smash at least a few faces. (which I also approve of, from a game play standpoint, players often have a lot of emotional investment in that HQ).

                      ** 24" still isn't going to make it work, Kirby. That's one gimmick and a charge range.

                    • Kirby says:

                      24" is a lot of wiggle room, particularly given they can move and shoot (so 32").

                    • auretioustaak says:

                      I dunno, it'll be interesting to see how the genestealer cults look out sir equivalent rules work out for their characters. Unquestioning Loyalty, badass rules – it's units within 3" make a 4+ roll and a model from that unit takes the wounds instead, multiple units in range and that's a lot of bodies as it's just hit a model from the unit not the closest model in the unit. Patriarches become beastly with this, and Magus's suddenly have serious survivability in combat where otherwise they suck pretty damned hard.

    • alberto says:

      i think that you can simple take more models, the ratio of how many model you can bring an how many can you opponents remove with the new shotting ration is definetly in ork/nid favours.
      Especially if you dont hit and can't be hit like when you bring some weapon battery.

      all t3 stuff played in less than unit of 30 not gona hurt a lot; so basically the ork list was totally underpowered and here are the issues; considering the tau list scale a lot better than ork one and ork player is not using what are his best units.

      I fastlook told me that ranged tank busta still seems the way to go even in 8th for elite slot but here i see none. Especially no heavy shooty unit.

      Now, if you got in difficulty vs wrong units and with 100 pt more what gona happen when enemy gona swarm you with a min max list.? I feel like the power of zerg is too much in this edition.

      • Kadeton says:

        I think there's something to this, though I think it's overstating the case a lot. This was almost certainly a list that didn't play to the strengths of Orks in 8th edition, though I don't really think you can blame either player for their lack of list-building expertise at this stage of the game! 😉

        Tankbustaz are definitely the most cost-effective anti-armour choice for Orks at range.

        Time will tell how strong zerging is in this edition – the meta tends to shift in accordance with that sort of thing. If lots of people start bringing Orks and Nids, other people will bring lots of anti-infantry firepower to mow them down. The meta starts to shift toward heavy armour to make the anti-infantry stuff inefficient, so people start bringing anti-armour. Then people start zerging again, and the cycle goes on. That sort of system is actually really healthy for a game, so I'm hoping that's what we'll see.

  4. Tryxtira says:

    Superexciting that this post lifted one of the big question mark for me regarding CPs. Can you use the CP ability to get out of Fighting Sequence to break the "charge benefit". I havn't looked too much into this myself, but it seems like a great usage if you're allowed to. Any thoughts on that? Are you certain that the play you made was legal or does the ability only apply to "post-charge-sequence".

    • abusepuppy says:

      You very definitely can use it to break the "all chargers first" thing- that's mainly what it's for. Note that in addition to charging units, there are several other things (like Banshee masks, etc) that can cause units to always swing first.

    • itcamefromthedeep says:

      You only get to use the stratagem after one of the charging units has fought. So the Crisis Suits should not have been the first unit to swing, but would be allowed after one Ork unit fought. It's not entirely clear whether the stratagem was played correctly, because some other Ork unit may have gone first in a different engagement in a way that wasn't mentioned.

  5. Vinsanity says:

    The main 3 takeaways for me (more on the Orks side I guess) were:

    1) Falling back from combat (and Tau suits and tanks also being able to shoot normally) is really big. It just means you cannot guarantee being stuck in combat to avoid some shooting which was pretty great for assault armies (ie in previous editions, win combat on their turn so that you were safe in their shooting phase and could assault again in your turn).

    2) The bubblewrap/screen units are of vital importance to keeping an army away from you. As there is no more tank shock, I got stuck on the Kroot and sort of underestimated how long it would take to deal with them (and overestimated my vehicles) in combat. In previous editions the wagons would just go straight through chaff like this via tank shock and I really felt the absence of that rule in 8th.

    3) Charging with Ork Trukks is weird!

    I do think I lost this game tactically in the first 2 turns though because I should've just jumped a boy unit and smashed the kroot while advancing everything else around them as best I could. I also think that poor positioning and not enough multi charges at the end there by the orks wasn't great play.

    I quite liked 8th and look forward to playing with more rounded armies and armies with an actual shooting phase 🙂

    • abusepuppy says:

      Being able to always walk out of combat- albeit sometimes at a penalty- is absolutely huge. It changes the whole interplay of shooting vs assault armies and what you want to happen during the fight phase.

      Kroot and other screening units are 100% necessary in this edition, for sure. I'm playing around with the idea of Fire Warriors as screeners, though- for 2pts/model more, you get significantly better armor and guns as well as some other possible benefits, and the only thing you really lose is the free move before the game starts.

      Charging with vehicles is definitely gonna feel odd for a while, but it's something that people will get used to.

      Good playing, though; everyone is a screwup at the start of the edition, it's only by making those mistakes that you can learn from them.

      • Prometheus says:

        I think it's more relevant to think of Firewarriors as 25% more expensive, rather than 2pts. Not that I think your argument is wrong, you also get the bonding knife rule, which means 1/6 of the time you ignore morale (and on the time it would hurt the most, too).

        Either way, I have a lot of both.

      • Kirby says:

        I've also thought of Kroot hounds as an even cheaper screen but Hound models are $$$$$.

        That being said, i have been using a Fireblade regardless and he buffs Rapid Firing Warriors to the 9s. I' definitely be keen to give it a go but I think I would have a unit of Kroot regardless, the extra move saved me an extra turn this game.

    • alberto says:

      well that is not true any ork vehicle (all of em ) would had exploded in the first turn ( maybe a little moe effort with battle wagon.

      Any metla or grav would had destroyed any of your strategy. here is not different a lot; how many wounds have a battle wagon i ask. MUltiple lascannon can do the same trick in 8th than waht was done in 7th, just requrie bit more firepower and can't just explode with 1 lucky hit.

      for sure not be able to focus 1 unit was a mistake; due how units can go awya from combat focus and 1 turn kill is much more important, shoot can be used to make units moral test if that's what you want but iff you play a melee army for the most not focus unit 1 by one or leave units alive after your first turn mean you have done something wrong.

      • alberto says:

        best in 7th was stay in melee for 2 turn, yours+ enemy so when the second ended you could move and charge again escape from enemy shoot.

        Here you cant do that you need to kille whole units in melee in 1 go, by focus stuff.
        Ranged stuff need to soft the enemy main target and then a fast alpha /beta strike with carefull focussing

    • auretioustaak says:

      It struck me as your list had like zero scorchas and burnas to abuse the auto hits to just clear bubble wrap units. There is a surprising wealth of options within the list, some affordable others not so much, to get scorchas and burnas in there, and whilst only 8" in range (so screws up say a unit of scorchas outriding to outflank and be in range to shoot the turn they arrive) using them as a counter bubble wrap unit is going to be a very real thing.

      Otherwise very interesting gameplay and nice to see the orks getting some love against Tau without just being deleted mercilessly. 🙂

      • Vinsanity says:

        Agreed, the list I used was like a 5th edition list haha, not suited for 8th at all. The ork army I have isn't really built for editions past this because I stopped using them and moved onto Tau and other armies during that time. Kirby just wanted painted armies so I was limited in my options. Plenty of ways for orks to clear chaff (mostly skortchas and burnas) so I look forward to trying these.

        I still maintain I lost the game because I didn't adequately deal with the Kroot early. Whether Kirby is 100 points up or not doesn't matter that much (the XV8s pretty much shot up whatever they targetted anyway) if the game plays out the same.

        It was actually very nice that the Trukk's didn't just explode when Kirby looked at them though, vehicles in general are really tough in 8th and things such as raiders, trukks, etc which would die to a round of bolters in previous editions no longer do this. Time to page Kirby/Neil to work out how much more survivable they are in 8th than previous editions!

        I hope to have my Imperial Guard ready for future bat reps but perhaps not in the next couple of months. I have CSM painted (not to my current painting standard though) so I could always give these a try next if I wanted to run a more diverse selection of units.

        • htmLord says:

          "Time to page Kirby/Neil to work out how much more survivable they are in 8th than previous editions! "

          The Rhino is roughly 60% harder to kill PER POINT than in 5th edition (and much harder to cripple, too!) and more than 2 times tougher than in 6th/7th, again PER POINT. So Rhinos are actually about 3 times tougher than in 5th edition (when everyone complained about unkillable armored car lists).

          In 5th, 1 Autocannon hit was 1/6 to glance and 1/3 to pen a Rhino, glance couldn't kill you (but enough could take you out, of course) and pen needed a 5+ to kill you. 1 in 9 to out and out kill you, plus a small chance added to that (1/18 to glance then weapon/immo and need to get multiple or 1/9 to pen then the same, only adds a small extra chance), additively that gives around 6 hits to kill a Rhino across enough attempts to make it statistically significant.

          In 8th, 1 Autocannon hit has a 1/2 chance to wound, then a 1/2 chance to not save, then does 2 wounds, so… 20 hits to kill a 10 wound model.

          • Kirby says:

            To be fair, the issue with 5th edition was the damage table and lack of any effect. You could have 10 penetrating effects in a turn and just shake the tank – hence hull points being introduced which made them way less durable. Also, wrecks were a thing and could really clog up a field.

            Now we have degrading statlines and also we know if we can manage to punch through X wounds (where X is normally triple the previous hull points) it will be dead. Add in that MCs have been buffed to the same levels and while they are certainly more durable, their range of crazy durableness no matter the firepower thrown at them has been lessened.

            • htmLord says:

              I agree, I was just using it as a point of reference – in the edition where vehicles were the most unkillable/powerful, they were less resilient than in the current edition. I'm really a huge fan of the change to wounds for vehicles, exactly as you say, it gives you a very consistent system – you won't lose a Rhino to the first autocannon that looks at it, but you also won't survive for 6 rounds against everything they can throw at you – I've won (or lost!) games for both reasons, so I'm happy to see them go.

  6. Prometheus says:

    I was thinking the same thing about characters….getting them into combat seems tricky, assuming they're going to be behind whatever unit they're leading. Have to leave a "pocket" and all that.

    I would have used more drones on your end, I think, but I'm arguing with success.

  7. vaguelycertain says:

    Booooo, more gun drones 😉

    I was suprised when I did the stats to see how close 2 missile pod and targetting system crisis were to 3 missile pod. For the things you're presumably taking missile pods for the targetting system is indeed better, if not by a huge amount.

    How do you feel about kroot in this edition? The changes to armour and morale make firewarriors significantly more durable in comparison, but the move is definitely useful.

    • Kirby says:

      ATS is bloody amazing. I don't think I would not take it ever if I had the option.

      As above in reply to Puppy I think I would always take at least one squad. Whether or not I continue with multiple squads I will see over the course of some games. That first move to delay first turn charges is going to be important but if Fire Warriors that are shooting and buffed can hold their place for a couple of points more, might be a better choice.

  8. ShadarLogoth says:

    How did so many Orcs die to the first explosion, just bad rolls?

    Also, how much did the Orcs various morals mechanics seem to impact the game?

    Love that we are seeing these again, Kirbs. I've said for a long time you are one of the best in the business at making battle reports.

    • Kirby says:

      I think four or five died in the explosion and then a handful more to the Kroot and 1? to Morale.

      Morale for Orks was really a non-factor until the squads got smaller but also most squads would get removed pretty quickly when focused on.

      Cheers :). I'm going to try and do some video based ones as well to compliment the written ones.

    • Kadeton says:

      Yeah, I thought that explosion seemed a bit extreme. (Out of 20 models, you'd expect to lose perhaps 3-4, and your Ld 16-17 unit should then have no worries with its Morale test.)

      One of the interesting aspects I hadn't considered before reading this report is that most of the Ork morale mitigation is based on other nearby units (Boyz for Ld numbers, Nobz for saves vs Morale, Warbosses to beat up units that fail badly) – if they're all embarked in Trukks and Wagons then you don't get any of those benefits.

      I suspect that effect (along with other changes that made playing with large units of infantry less punishing in several ways) is going to change the 'typical' Ork list into something more like a traditional Green Tide, but with flanking units and some beefy armour to punch through and/or get around skirmish screens. It will be interesting times for the Orks in this edition, I think!

      • Matt-Shadowlord says:

        Green tide with flanking units and armour smashing the center sounds great to me!

        • Kadeton says:

          Right?! It's like GW have finally managed to get the way that Orks behave in the game to be roughly similar to the way they behave in the fluff. There's a first time for everything. 🙂

          • akorndr2 says:

            It’s not orky if there not crumping stuff with shootas and choppers get some deep strike boys in bikes. Hell I think the deff dreads will be back

            • Kadeton says:

              My greatest hope for this edition is that "a little bit of everything" lists will be just as (if not more) effective than hyper-focused lists that take one thing and spam the crap out of it. Orks have got so many great choices that I really feel like they could do this and make it work.

              • abusepuppy says:

                I think you're more likely to see armies bringing multiple kinds of tools, since those individual tools aren't as able to handle wide swathes of the field effectively, but no matter what you do there's always going to be some options that stand out above the others- and that means that players will often focus on those options as their first choices.

                You may not see people bringing twelve squads of Scat Bikes anymore, but you probably will still see people bringing 3-4 squads of on dominant unit flanked by smaller numbers of other things. "Variety sampler" armies just don't have enough redundancy to do most jobs effectively, even in a balanced environment.

                • Kadeton says:

                  The main thing giving me hope is the way that the fundamental game mechanics push everything closer to the middle of the power scale across the board, and also make everything more "general use".

                  Each weapon, for example, will have a set of "preferred targets" against which it is most efficient. However, the new Wound chart has the effect of making light weapons useful against tough targets to a much greater extent than before, while simultaneously giving very deadly weapons a relative advantage against light targets.

                  The upshot of those changes is that a certain degree of redundancy is guaranteed, which makes sampler armies much more viable. In most armies, there's also a lot of power-equivalent redundancy available – it should hopefully be rare for a single choice to leap out as "best". Some choices will offer more speed, some more resiliency, some more range… it's then up to you how you choose to build, and that freedom is really what I'm after.

                  I've been doing most of my analysis on the Ork list, where I think you will certainly 3-4 choices of a dominant unit and then a variety of support choices. Fortunately, that 'dominant unit' is Ork Boyz, and that's pretty much exactly how it should be. 🙂

                  • abusepuppy says:

                    Yeah, for sure. Whereas before not having a S6+ gun meant that a Knight was literally invulnerable to your attacks, now the ability of all weapons to do at least _something_ to every target means you're never completely without hope. In that respect, a lot of the
                    "middleweight" guns like Heavy Bolters are a lot more useful.

                    In my list-building so far, I have found myself repeating lots of units 2x or 4x, but not usually wanting to bring 6x+ of anything, so that's something.

  9. Prometheus says:

    SO I haven't read the missions thoroughly yet….Why was the Ork warlord worth 2 VP and the Tau Warlord (longstrike, I'm assuming?) worth only 1 VP?

    Would you recommend choosing Longstrike as your warlord in the future, or something that can be more traditionally screened from long range fire. (Again, not really an issue against these orks, but you get my point)

    • ShadarLogoth says:

      I think he means that as a running total. 1 for first blood plus 1 for StW.

    • Kirby says:

      ^ running totals.

      I really like Longstrike. IDK if I'd use him as my Warlord all the time but he's a lot more durable total wise vs the other characters but there weren't 10 lascannons staring him down this game.

      IDK overall – I think a few games will let me know more, particularly how common snipers are.

      • Prometheus says:

        Oh, I love Longstrike so hard I want to marry him. (Tau were my first army, and I largely choose them because I thought Hammerheads were cool) Just not sure if it's better to make him the warlord or some commander.

        • Kirby says:

          Ya IDK either. I haven't taken a Commander in any lists yet though – very expensive compared to Fireblade, Darkstrider or Ethereals.

          • abusepuppy says:

            Yeah but those are the three cheapest HQs in the list, so is that really surprising? 😛

            For 120-150pts, a Commander brings four _very_ accurate guns to the table (Plasma or Cyclic Ion are my top choices at this point) as well as a very powerful once per game buff. I feel like he's well worth the cost; he's performed well while using him so far.

          • Prometheus says:

            I think to Kadeton's point a few comments ago, Characters are meant to go toe-to-toe (not your ethereals! Obviously.). Your commander is meant to shoot a SM Captain in the face, make him scared. Then probably get charged, dance away and murder some tac squads, if things are going well for you.

            Give him 3 guns (some combo of plasma and fusion, I'm thinking, ATS won't be needed) and a multi-tracker, so he hits 35/36 times, and fucking show an Astartes how to know some fear.

  10. Jimbo says:

    Orks make bad decisions. Orks lose. Tau also make bad decisions Tau win. It's not so much the Tau which is the problem. I think their rules are actually a lot better than they were. It's some of the rules relating to contact with the enemy which need to be looked at and ironed out. It still feels and looks very shooty. Moreover, its yet another Tau victory haven't seen a battle report where they've lost against an assault army yet. Bar the one at Miniwargaming and the dude was extremely fresh and I wouldn't call the DA's necessarily a CC type army.

    • Kirby says:

      The Tau list was also a lot more well rounded – issues with both lists but this is still early days yet.

      I don't think 8th edition is the edition of assault but it's certainly a lot more useful. Tau are also an army that can ignore the penalties for escaping assault a lot easier than most armies.

    • abusepuppy says:

      Melee can still be strong in this edition; assaults will happen early and often. It's still far too soon to be calling things one way or the other.

    • Kadeton says:

      Tau will always have a way of polarising games – either their shooting and screening will be enough to keep the enemy off them and they'll win (and the opponent will feel like they were at Gallipoli)… or it won't, and they'll get badly massacred.

      Add to that the fact that while people are still working out how to play this new edition, the simplest and easiest tactic (and therefore the most effective when nobody really knows what they're doing) is always going to be shooting the enemy from a million miles away.

      Once people figure out the new meta a bit better (for example, how to deal with screening units), you should start to see Orks played much more effectively.

      In every wargame I've played, shooting-heavy lists dominate the early meta. After a while, that tactic stops working.

    • alberto says:

      tau scale better in points, ork need 2k as csm to shine (aka 1850 pt) in 7 th ed

  11. Prometheus says:

    I think screening units like kroot really need to be taken out by shooting first. Orks still have lootas, right? Should be good for that.

    It's also occurring to me that you don't need a unit to charge and shoot the same thing. I'm thinking a GK unit can dakka down the light stuff in front (storm bolters are 4 shots each at 12", jeez) and then charge whatever tastier and more expensive unit it behind it.

    • Kirby says:

      Yes that was a big issue with Vince's list – no shooting and his shooting kept plinking at my drones rather than the Kroot.

      That's also a really important change – you can shoot and assault different targets which is huge in terms of breaking upon bubble-wraps. Post coming on this soon :).

    • Prometheus says:

      99% sure that is incorrect.

    • Kadeton says:

      Amusingly, the most cost-effective anti-infantry shooting in the Ork list, assuming you can get it to within 12", is a unit of 20+ Gretchin. Like, by a *mile* – the next most effective (Burnas) are a fair way behind, and they have to get even closer to the enemy!

      In a nice change from previous versions, Flash Gitz are reasonably cost-effective shooters (on par with Lootaz against infantry) and they're tough and good in melee as well. I would actually suggest a unit of Flash Gitz in a Battlewagon (with Big Shootas) is probably the most efficient tool the Orks have for clearing out screening units.

      • Prometheus says:

        OK, cool. I hadn't checked out the Ork list in much detail, and I wasn't going to tell ork players how to Ork, anyway. Just saying it looks like you gotta shoot the screeners.

        • Kadeton says:

          Definitely. Ork shooting is going to be really tactically important, which is a pretty interesting turn-around for an army with such crappy accuracy. It should encourage more balanced, varied armies – there's probably nothing in the game more points-efficient in melee than big units of Ork Boyz, so it's likely to be a good plan to spend some of those savings on shooty stuff to ensure you can unleash that melee power on targets that actually matter.

  12. Nick says:

    So do we know if there is any extra rules for the keywords, like Vehicles, Titanic, Cavalry etc?

    • Prometheus says:

      Well, yes. And no. For instance, drones can take wounds from Tau Battlesuits, or Infantry. That means Crisis suits, Riptides, FW, even Kroot, but not Krootox which are cavalry and not even Stormsurges, which are vehicles.

      I noticed a bunch of Dark Eldar things that are supposed to be poisoned wounded non vehicles on a 2+ but vehicles on 6+.

      Stuff like that. It's all about the rules interactions.

    • abusepuppy says:

      The only keyword with an explicit game effect is the Fly keyword- apart from that, no keywords do anything in and of themselves.

      However, many abilities refer to specific keywords (either faction or otherwise)- so for example many abilities will only benefit infantry, or only affect vehicles, or do something extra to titanic or monstrous units. Keywords are very important in this respect, because they define how abilities and units interact with each other.

      • Nick says:

        Ah.. so Cav and Bikes charge just as badly as infantry then 😕

        • Kadeton says:

          Sort of. Yes, in the sense that all units roll 2d6 for charge distance *by default*. There's no core rule that makes cavalry, bikes or beasts better at charging.

          However, individual units can have special rules in their entry that make them better at charging, and those will almost certainly show up more often on traditionally "swift" units that want to get into melee. They also tend to have much higher Movement stats than infantry, which obviously helps them to get into more reliable charge range.

          • abusepuppy says:

            Yeah, they aren't any faster in the Assault phase than infantry are… but when you're 6-8" close to start with because you moved further, it turns out you're a lot more likely to succeed that charge.

      • Kadeton says:

        The keywords with their own dedicated sections in the rules are "Transport" and "Character" (and arguably "Psyker"). Fly just gets mentioned in other sections where it's relevant.

        Personally, I think it would have been a good design choice to put all the exceptions to the general movement rules for flying more in a "Fly" sidebar, rather than burying them in other paragraphs, but oh well. They're really doubled down on the "no USRs!" plan.

      • malloc() says:

        Well, and Character.

  13. auretioustaak says:

    I like the overlaid text on the images that dropped down more tactical thoughts for what was going on, it really helps highlight the battle as a whole cleanly and fast if you don't have time or a want to hack through text and want to just get a summary of the bat rep by looking at the pics and filling in the gaps. It's a good move and would be great to see in future write ups Kirbs.

  14. dermitder says:

    Your photography skills make me think you were the one responsible for the leaks

  15. Jack says:

    Great stuff to see. This edition seems promising in terms of tactical options. I’m looking forward to seeing the fly reyreats in the hands of agressive melee units and see how that goes.

    Any chance of an Imperial Guard report? Pleeeeease!

    • Kirby says:

      Matt plays Guard so hopefully he'll oblige. Vinsanity was painting up his guard so potentially will get some games in against them soon.

  16. AngryPanda says:

    So, hopelessly naive question but: Is this fun?
    I mean it has to be better than 7th because eating your own toes is better than 7th. But still, it all looks so… ewww? If this was some first edition of a new game I could live with how unpolished it feels but for 40k it's just. I dunno.

    • wellspokenman says:

      Fun is so subjective, but the game hasn't fundamentally changed. Streamlined a bit, but nothing innovative. This is 40k AoSified. So if you thought 40k was a great game bogged down by too many re-rolls, formation bloat, or ally combos, you'll probably like 8th. If you thought that 40k was a bit like the Jitterbug cellphone and needed to be brought into the 21st century, then you probably won't find it that fun. If I didn't already own the models I wouldn't buy in now. Too many other games are more polished and modern.

      • AngryPanda says:

        That was the vibe I got. It's like "yay we reduced 40k to the absolute core of itself" with well none of the bells and whistles that at least put some fun into it. For me, that is, obviously as you say that is entirely subjective. AOS is pretty much boredom in expensive boxes to me so this does not look good at all. Even trying to stay positive I just can't.
        You even found a better way to express how it feels to me than I had on my own. I was hoping for a 21st-century version of 40k. Instead this feels like "40k, the windows 98 spreadsheet!". There's just.. well nothing.

        • Prometheus says:

          I think the all the old trickery is still there, for the veteran players. They just kinda hid it away, so it won't confuse the newbies.

          Take heart, try a few games. Don't buy anything yet, all the rules are leaked, just try it.

          • AngryPanda says:

            I don't doubt it. I mean chess is hard too. It's just boring to me. The moments I actually rember from 40k games was then that Mawloc burst out of a rock plateau he had to hit exactly, my Immortals stumbling down from it left and right in 6th. That whole building vanishing under a Warpcannon blast in 2nd or even the Falcon crashing while trying to do a Star Wars jetbike move in Catachan jungles somewhere in the middle of thoss.

        • wellspokenman says:

          My first concern was when they released Shadow War: Armageddon using a 20 year old rule set. That didn't bode well for GW's innovative powers. My second was hearing they stuck with IGOUGO for 8th. Then D6's started showing up in the rules previews… You could argue that this simplification is the first step to creating a modern game, but I think that GW is just going to focus on selling NuMarines to existing increasingly stodgy, middle aged players.

          By the way, nothing I'm saying is meant to imply it doesn't take skill to play the game.

          • AngryPanda says:

            Those are exactly the phases I went through. Admittedly I was glad for what they did with Shadow War even if I thought it was funny that their best system is 20 years old. It made me hope they'd take that and modernise it. I never expected them to go from the D6 even if I thought they should have done that like 15 years ago but I was sure they'd at least ditch IGOUGO.
            Instead, we got something as lifeless as their modern versions with every chance for spectacular moments cleaned out to instead provide a perfectly calculable version of the game the top tables at the LVO were probably playing already.

            • Kadeton says:

              I'm not going to try to argue against your opinion, but I am curious: what elements of the new edition contribute to it feeling lifeless for you? Conversely, what would you have liked to see in the game that would have made it more lively?

              (For the record, despite the ancient ruleset, I've found Shadow War to be a lot of fun, and actually a large shake-up of the stodginess of Necromunda. The rules have been tweaked in some really important ways that make the game feel very different in play.)

              • AngryPanda says:

                To answer the second and way easier part first, I had high hopes then Shadow War went back to Necromunda style rules. And was hoping we'd get a new edition made of a reworked and streamlined version of that for larger battles.

                For the second part I'd almost need to put down some silly manifesto on how I would have liked the game but let's just some it up that I'd like vehicles to be able to drive over rthings, ram them, explode, not be shot by lasguns.
                I like Templates because they make flamers not be the most precise anti-air gone or hit a single dude seven times. I even liked scatter for deep strike, they could have just reduced it to 1D6 or such. As it is it feels like it is all one big clump of everything is the same.
                Some ideas are really great, like taking characters out of units. At the same time they didn't have to take all the flavour out of it though. Taking characters out of units already fixed death stars no reason to go crazy with everything.

                Last but not least I've wandered off to Infinity which does exactly the opposite of what GW has done here. EVERY ability is in the rulebooks. So that's some work to get through. But afterwards, you know how everything works because not a single unit has an ability that is not in said book (Firestorm Armada does that too). For me that's the way to design a stable game, not open the floodgates for all sorts of possible nonsense special rule that comes with a unit.

                • wellspokenman says:

                  The only reason that Infinity's byzantine rules work is that they are accessible. The official online army builder and wiki, plus the searchable PDFs make an extremely complicated rule set easy to access when you have a specific question. GW isn't going to take this approach because it still wants to sell rules (which I disagree with, but whatever).

                  Another big difference is that Infinity is designed and maintained as a competitive game. They've spent years ironing out their tournament system and balancing their game for competitive play. GW on the other hand has spent years ignoring balance, using rules to sell models, and not supporting tournament play. If you like Infinity you are most likely going to find 40k very frustrating. The one bright spot is that GW has changed it's tone on competitive play, so there is hope going forward. It's just that GW is way behind other games now when it comes to competitive play.

                  • AngryPanda says:

                    All true. And yeah I think after having jumped ship there once I just can't go back. And frankly, GW has no trust on the bank to banish any doubts. They might change their tone on what players they care about again next month if they don't sell enough NuMarines for their taste.

                • Kadeton says:

                  Cool, thanks for the perspective. 🙂

                  I can't imagine Necromunda / 2nd Ed 40k rules as the basis for a company-scale game. They're just very clunky, nitty-gritty rulesets – 3rd Ed 40k was, to me, a pretty good attempt at cleaning them up for the time, and 8th Ed feels like another big step in the direction of turning 40k into a modern game. It's just so much *cleaner* than previous editions.

                  To some extent there's a question of the degree of abstraction each player is happy with – I'm perfectly okay with the idea that a vehicle charging and rolling attacks represents it driving over and ramming things. I'm fine with the notion that massed small-arms fire can bring down a tank eventually, especially since it means that small arms aren't completely useless in the game any more. I like that I can keep my flamethrowers trained on a single guy and burn him to a crisp rather than indiscriminately spraying the whole neighbourhood, and I wouldn't want to be the pilot who flew his jet through a stream of burning promethium.

                  I appreciate the way they're making everything use the same basic rules, to be honest. I don't mind creating my own narrative for explaining why things happen on a different level to the rules abstraction, and I really like that I don't have to worry about memorising entirely different rulesets for infantry, vehicles, monsters, flyers, big vehicles, big monsters, etc. etc.

                  I'm glad you mentioned Infinity's rules approach, because I hadn't been able to pinpoint why I couldn't get into that game – it's the rules centralisation (and the art style, but I could get over that). I like to learn a game by taking a quick primer of the rules and then exploring what individual models that I like the look of can do, and learning the game that way. You can't do that with Infinity, because a unit's stats will just say things like "Antipode" or "Kinematika 2", which gives you absolutely nothing unless you already know the rulebook cover-to-cover. I hate it when learning a game or evaluating a unit feels like doing research.

                  In contrast, I'm coming back to 40k from Malifaux, which puts all but the most basic rules directly on a model's stat card. It's so easy to pick up a model and see exactly what it does, and you've got that reference right there when your opponent asks you to check the wording without having to flip through a rulebook or search a PDF. That definitely seems to be the direction that 40k is taking, so to me it feels both familiar and sensible. 🙂

          • babelfisk says:

            I remain to be convinced that moving away from IGOUGO would be a good idea for 40k. Alternating activation works well for platoon and squad scale games, but GW wants 40k to be a company scale game.

            I freely admit to not having tried every option out there, but none of the alternates to IGOUGO I’ve tried/read about would smoothly port to 40k scale games.

            • wellspokenman says:

              There are a lot of different game mechanics out there past a D6 and straight player turns. In 40k you get relatively long stretches of time where you have very little or no input into the game. There are a lot of ways that you can break that up. GW looked like they might head that way with CP, but those don't currently seem to add that much to the game.

              Most of the scale arguments don't hold that much weight either. A unit in a Skirmish game is a model and in 40k games it's a squad, but in the end, it's one unit. GW's lack of innovation, the substantial buy in required, the community's rather unfriendly approach to new players, and the increasing age/crustiness of the current player base combine to make 40k pretty inaccessible to newer, younger players. In the long run that's not good for anybody.

            • AngryPanda says:

              Everyone can have their preferences of course but how alternate activation doesn't work for squad by squad is really something I can't see. 40k is more like the opposite, it actively refuses to integrate mechanics that represent it is a squad based game. If it did you wouldn't have to roll whole buckets of dice and spend half the game counting results because it would have a way to factor in number other than just adding more and more dice. The core mechanic is still the one of a game that has maybe 20 dudes on the table.

              • ShadarLogoth says:

                I honestly like rolling buckets of dice. I'm probably a little old school that way, though.

              • Kadeton says:

                I think alternating activations in any of several variations could easily have worked for 40k. Heck, the best ruleset GW has ever released (Epic) was based on alternating activations. They're obviously experimenting with different ideas of activation order in 40k to some extent – the Assault phase is alternating, for example.

                That said, rolling large numbers of dice is undoubtedly part of the design intent and the appeal of the game. It's not there by accident, or by creeping out of scale – the game is very much built around dice-buckets as a core mechanic, and everything else flows from there.

    • Kirby says:

      Short answer? Yes.

      Are there still things I don't like? Yes. But I don't think I ever played anything that I was never unhappy about at some point or another. Maybe Goldeneye, Roller Coaster Tycoon or Starcraft in my younger days when I didn't know any better :).

      • ShadarLogoth says:

        The correct answers are Axis and Allies and the original X-Com ;).

        • abusepuppy says:

          Man if X-Com and Axis and Allies didn't make you punch a wall at some point (probably thirty hours into campaign mode and while trying to set up the board, respectively) then you are some kind of robot from beep-boop land.

          • ShadarLogoth says:

            Hahaha. So true. Setting up the board on A & A is like an Operation mini game.

  17. Catalyst says:

    Won't be polished until everyone gets aquainted, but this has the potential to be the most fun version with more violence, death and destruction >:)

  18. Prometheus says:

    Hey, Kirby. I just realized a thing. Railguns do their special mortal wound thing on a "6+ to wound". That means that Longstrikes Tank Ace rule will affect it. Now you're up to 1/3 of the time.

    I was going to run Longstrike and 2 Hammerheads, with 1 Railgun and 2 Ions. This switches up who gets the Railgun, though.

    • Kirby says:

      *strokes invisible goatee* hmmmm. And with a single markerlight…

      2+ re-rolls to hit if stationary.
      Wounding most things on 2's thanks to Longstrike special rule.

      Potentially, potentially… I love Ionheads though…

      • Prometheus says:

        Search your heart. Take ALL the hammerheads.

        Second thing I thought of. Cadre fireblade inside a tidewall droneport. That comes with 4 drones, which can be marker drones, and may use the BS of the pasenger. 152 pts gets you 5 BS2+ markerlights. A transport about as durable as a rhino and an HQ for detachment purposes.

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