Space Marine Weapon Options in the 8th Edition Warhammer 40k

Hi everyone!

I’ve taken a break from 40k for the last few years, but I’m keen to come back for 8th edition. Chatbox regulars would recognise my name (Neil Phillips), but I’ve not written a Blog post before.

I had some spare time today, and spent it building this giant chart:

What is this thing of beauty? Well, it’s every Space Marine ranged weapon, up against a variety of targets.

How to Read the Table

 

 

Here we see how some basic marine weapons stack up against various enemies. The weapon stats are shown in blue, with a column in green and red for each enemy. For example, a Guard with Toughness 3, 5+ Save and 1 Wound. Pay attention just to the Toughness, Save and Wound listed about each column; the T7 3+ 8W column is relevant for the majority of Marine and Tau vehicles we’ve seen so far. (Wounds don’t make a difference above 6 for this exercise).

The results down a column is the number of “Expected Wounds”. For example, a Storm Bolter kills about 1.19 Guardsman, on average. Meanwhile, the Storm Bolter puts about 0.07 wounds on a Land Raider. You may prefer to consider the inverse, 1/0.07 = 14 Storm Bolters will put one wound on a Land Raider, on average. You don’t have to understand what the numbers mean exactly, just “higher is better”.

Some caveats: The charts assume BS3+, no cover, and Rapid Fire weapons are at short range. There is assumed to be an unlimited unit size (because that one time a flamer kills 6 Space Marines counts towards the average). Damage gets “capped” so for example, a Meltagun that rolls 6 damage only counts as 2 against a Primaris. I’ve picked 10 targets given input from the Chatbox. Some of the weapon stats are taken from leaks and thus could be wrong. Also, I might have made a mistake somewhere in the excel formula, leaving this article based on a pack of lies!

Today, we’ll look at the Space Marine Tactical Squad ranged options.

Special Weapons

The first thing to jump out is: Wow, the Flamer is awful! It’s barely better than a Plasma Gun against guardsmen. Absolutely does not perform it’s expected role, terrible range, forget it exists.

Next, we have the big question: Grav or Plasma. If we ignore the Supercharge mode, the Plasma and Grav are fairly similar in power against most things. Grav is better against multi-wound models with 3+ or better saves, as we’d expect – which could be handy if you’re being overrun by Primaris marines. But by the time you consider Plasma’s superior range, lower point cost, and (if you’re desperate) ability to Supercharge – it just blows Grav out of the water, in my opinion.

Melta gives a little bit of extra kick against vehicles, but it’s not the one-hit-wonder it used to be. Plasma is your go-to gun.

Heavy Weapons

 

Now as the 8th ed rumours started rolling in, I’d been excited that this edition would be the Heavy Bolter’s time to shine.

And… how wrong I was! Between wounding Guardsmen on 3’s, and not completely removing their save, it just doesn’t mow them down like they used to. It can hurt vehicles, but it’s not great at it. Most notably, the Plasma Cannon does equal-or-better against all targets except Orks. At least the Heavy Bolter is cheap! That may be enough.

The Missile Launcher is actually almost as good as a Heavy Bolter against light infantry! It struggles a bit against Marine equivalents (interestingly, Frag & Krak are equally useful there), but picks up against heavier targets. The Plasma Cannon is a slightly better all-rounder, although shorter range and cheaper.

But who cares about any of that. The Grav-Cannon wins in almost every category. It completely outshines the Multimelta, even in the Multimelta’s “specialty” category, heavy vehicles – it does almost as good at 24” as the Multimelta does at half range! It’s only 1 point more expensive, too.

It looks like the go-to gun on a tactical squad will be the Grav-Cannon, or possibly a Heavy Bolter to save points. The 24” range matches the threat range of the rest of their guns, the -1 to hit when moving is less of an issue because it rolls lots of dice.. it’s just good.

It’s a shame, what could have been – the first draft of this article was based on an incomplete scan, and I missed the Grav-Cannon as an option for Tacticals (I haven’t played since 6th ed!). The other weapons are all reasonably well balanced against each other, and this was a rosy paragraph talking about what a good job GW had done.

A Big Ol’ Table of (almost) Everything

(I’ve left out weapons with special rules I haven’t implemented yet, including Combis. Also most “Twin” weapons are left out, but you can just double the numbers given)

The brand-new Predator Autocannon is looking pretty shmick!

That’s all for today. If you find any errors in the table, please let me know (I’m sure I made some!). Also let me know what other things you’d like to see on the target list, and what race you’d like to see covered next (pending leaks…)

– Neil

 

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...
Both comments and pings are currently closed.

95 Responses to “Space Marine Weapon Options in the 8th Edition Warhammer 40k”

  1. Ollanius says:

    Excellent article. Just wanted to thank all of you for coming back!

  2. Ish says:

    I have been saying for a while now that the Combi-Flamer is going to be the go-to option for Sergeants in “shooty” Tactical Squads. Seeing the math hammered out like this… actually reinforces my belief. It’s primary job is adding some guaranteed hits when the squad is charged (Overwatch) or when the squad wants to chase some Orks or Guardsmen off of an Objective.

    • Matt-Shadowlord says:

      The flamer's poor performance was a bit of a surprised. I hadn't checked the numbers myself yet, but did see a lot of internet hype about them. 'Might kill half a marine' is a long way from the walls of death people have been conjecturing!

      Three things in the defence of flamers:
      [] It's good for overwatch
      [] It would look better in comparison charts when being used by lower skilled armies
      [] It automatically hits flyers, because why not 😀

      • abusepuppy says:

        I'm gonna say use the phrase "flew too close to the sun" to describe flyers shot down by flamers from now on.

        The big reason it looks so bad in comparison is that it no longer ignores those 5+ armor saves like it used to; people keep thinking every hit is a dead Guardsman, but it's not even close.

      • Kadeton says:

        The flamer's "poor performance" is a total furphy, to be honest. If you consider a 40-60% lead over its nearest category-competitor to be "barely better", sure.

        It would literally be a more accurate statement to say "Wow, the Flamer is amazing! Against its preferred targets (Guardsmen and Orks) it's almost as good as a Grav-Cannon."

        • vaguelycertain says:

          I mean my issue with the flamer was always the extrememly short range, so yeah, I kind of want more of a lead than that when it is firing to make up for all the times that it isn't.

          • Kadeton says:

            The range is definitely its glaring weakness, for sure. On the other hand, the comparison to the plasma gun is only valid when the plas is rapid-firing (at 12"), so it's not like the flamer is being compared to stuff in a totally different range bracket.

            The biggest difference would be its utility on drop troops – having to deep strike 9" from any enemies is clearly terrible for flamers.

            • Dr. Santa says:

              I'm using Flamers and Combiflamers with Tacticals that Advance a lot; they advance because they're running with Aggressors and Pedro Kantor who also have Assault Weapons.

        • Michael says:

          Aye. And cheaper than the grav cannon. And can be run and shot without any penalty. And always hits in overwatch. And completely ignores any defence based on giving minuses to hit. And is vastly more useful on lower BS units (i.e. on a Leman Russ with 1 wound remaining, a Heavy Flamer will perform just as well as on an undamaged model, unlike any other weapon option).

          So, yes I agree on your more accurate statement.

    • Char says:

      The flamer is not a great Overwatch weapon, as any unit that is more than 8 inches away at the start of the charge cannot be targeted by the flamer in overwatch. This is especially painful when Overwatching Deepstrikers.

      • Ish says:

        Plenty of charges will take place at less than 8″.

        • abusepuppy says:

          Yeah, because if you're starting out at 9"+ the chances of succeeding the charge are not actually that great- especially taking casualties from Overwatch into account.

          • Kadeton says:

            Not terrible odds for Orks (or anyone else that gets to reroll their charge distance) at 9", but certainly not reliable. Flamers are definitely going to be relevant.

            Overwatch casualties shouldn't matter, though – you can always take off models from the back of the unit that wouldn't have made it into combat anyway.

            • abusepuppy says:

              Sure, depending on squad size and composition; it's not uncommon for special weapons, sergeants, etc to end up towards the back where you don't want to pull them as casualties, which can cause problems. not an issue for a big unlike like a mob of Boyz, but can be for smaller units.

              • Kadeton says:

                Sure. I might be in an Ork mindset with my analysis of this edition overall. 😉

                That said, Sergeants should always be up front! It's not like they have anything to fear from leading the charge. And since that's pretty much always the last model you want to die when charging (since they're almost always the best of their unit in close combat) you shouldn't fail a charge due to overwatch unless the whole unit is wiped out.

                • abusepuppy says:

                  The issue is often that there isn't a single "front" a lot of the time- units will have to shift directions one or several times over the course of a battle, which can leave models out of place with respect to where you want them to be in an ideal sense. This is especially true against mobile armies (Eldar, Tau, etc) that are often fairly shooting-heavy.

                  • Kadeton says:

                    There's always a "front" when you're charging! 😀

                    But yes, perfect positioning might not always be possible. It's just far less of a concern than in previous editions, which makes me happy.

                    • abusepuppy says:

                      Mmmm. I don't like that model positioning is now largely irrelevant within units, but since it saves a lot of time and effort I'm fine with it overall.

          • Ish says:

            Overwatch won’t cause too many charges to fail, but it will blunt them.

            Yes, especially strong shooting units or those with overwatch bonuses will stop some charges dead. But for the most part, overwatch is just going to kill a model or two. Still, being punched in the face by six Khorne Berserkers is better than eight.

  3. vaguelycertain says:

    Whereas I largely feel vindicated that flamers aren't that remarkable 😛

    Nice analysis, very thorough!

    I made my own spreadsheet for giving the points per wound, spent an hour trying to remember how to spreadsheet so figure I might as well share it
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OAIlEWA-i

  4. wellspokenman says:

    So the only thing a basic Landraider really needs to fear is another basic Landraider and whatever has LasTalons.

  5. CmmderK says:

    Holy Sh!t Neil!

    Sweet baby Buddha!

    So much number!!!

    ❤️❤️❤️

  6. Brian says:

    Interesting. A lot here defied my expectations as well. Especially the multi-shot weapons like the heavy bolter and flamers. If I'm understanding this properly, shooting is much less deadly than I'd been assuming, and makes close-combat a much bigger part of the game. Assuming you get two rounds of shooting, you're only going to dent that squad of Khorne Berserkers even using heavy artillery. Two-to-three dead from a squad of 10 still leaves seven close-combat specialists to deliver some pain. If they come in larger mobs, your shooting is barely going to be noticeable!

    Would you mind posting the results assuming BS4+?

  7. Kjeldorian says:

    What would be interesting is dividing these numbers by points cost…

  8. Matt-Shadowlord says:

    Excellent info Neil, thanks very much for putting it all together.

    Any chance of getting some numbers for the Guard toys?

  9. Kirby says:

    IDK about the Grav Cannon all the time on Tacticals – PC is still a good option that is just slightly cheaper with an extra 12" range though you do need to supercharge it (all those SM character's re-rolling 1s are going to be important). Shame the LC seems left behind by the GC though.

    • Ish says:

      I think the Grav Cannon versus Plasma Cannon for Tactical Squads will come down to how you intend the squad to function most of the time. Chapters that prefer a longer ranged shooting game (Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Raptors) will probably find the PC the better choice, Chapters that prefer to get into close range shooting matches (Salamanders, Iron Hands) will favor the GC…

    • Ish says:

      The Lascannon has a major range advantage over the Gravcannon and the performance against higher end targets is about the same. So the LC might not be great for the Heavy Weapon in a Tactical Squad, but I think it will remain effective for dedicated anti-vehicle duty Devastator Squads.

      • Michael says:

        Why not chuck them into a Tactical Squad? Nothing stopping the Lascannon putting wounds on big models while the whole unit moves around and shoots.

        To be honest I think that given how much more mobile everything is likely to be, I think range is a much more valuable commodity than it used to be. Additionally the inherent ability to split fire means that weapons are less bound by strengths or weaknesses of the rest of the unit – i.e. having a lascannon that shoots tanks a long way away and a flamer killing weak infantry close by is likely to be more efficient than taking grav and shooting whatever happens to be in range.

  10. abusepuppy says:

    I think you're overselling the Grav Cannon and underselling the Flamer a bit here; if you look at _percentage_ differences, rather than absolute values, they start looking a LOT better.

    The Multimelta is really good against T7 or less vehicles; oddly, though, it struggles against T8+ (though it is still better than Grav there, albeit not by as much as it seems like it should be.) While .5 wounds removed doesn't seem like a lot, that's a 33% increase over the Grav on the lighter targets.

    (Of course, Grav is much better against many other things, and hence I think we'll see a fair amount of it around still. But it isn't just evaporating everything it shoots at anymore, so we have that to be thankful for.)

    Similarly, while the Flamer isn't wiping out whole squads of Guardsmen in a single go, it is still pitting 50% more wounds on them than Plasma is- and that's not trivial, especially when you then factor in overwatch and using it during an Advance, not to mention the price. It's a solid gun that performs alright against basic infantry.

    However, criticisms aside, this is a fantastic resource for players and we all really appreciate your putting it together. There's a lot of assumptions that need to be reforged in the light of the new edition, and tools like this are what help us to make the decisions that will need to be made when building armies. It isn't a glamorous piece, but it's one that I think people will be coming back to for months and even years in the future to reference.

    • Matt-Shadowlord says:

      Absolutely agree with AbusePuppy on that last paragraph. This is the sort of evergreen information people will use for reference for a long time. Thanks for putting it together.

      PS we want moaaar!

      • Ish says:

        Powersword versus Poweraxe versus Powermaul versus Powerfist versus Chainfist versus Nemesis Force Kitchen Sink?

  11. artemi71 says:

    Do Tactical Marines get the Grav Amp? I thought that was only for the Centurions, and the Tacs got just a bog standard Grav Cannon. Was that a change in 8th I missed?

  12. fr0z0rz says:

    Thanks for posting this dude! Would love to see some xenos numbers for Dark Eldar, Tyranid and/or Orks!

  13. Toast says:

    Don't suppose you can share the sheet?

  14. vipoid says:

    Is there any chance you could add the stats for an Autocannon for us IG players? xD

    That aside, do you think Flamers might be more beneficial in an army like IG (where units have worse BS)?

    • Neil_Phillips says:

      I accidentally missed the Autocannon as it was only in the "Twin" section. It will be in the IG article, coming soon. It's slightly better against infantry, slightly worse against light vehicles falls off sharply against heavy vehicles.

  15. Toast says:

    OK, it was raining so I had a play in Excel:
    http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=8182

    The most interesting modes are probably "Points per Kill" and "Points per Killed Point".

    Shortcomings:
    – My Excel-fu isn't good enough to do graded conditional formatting that switches direction under certain conditions, so the non-points views are essentially colored backwards
    – Ideally each weapon should probably have a "typical platform points" value so you're not stuck with the assumption that all guns are on the same model (currently set to 13 points for a base SM; if you set it to zero, 0-point items like the boltgun obviously produce silly results)

    In any case, it should be pretty extensible so feel free to do whatever with it 🙂

  16. vaguelycertain says:

    For anyone still labouring under the illusion that the battlecannon is a useful weapon
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/6f

    • wellspokenman says:

      Not fired from a basic Russ, no it isn't. It's still, sadly, one of the best choices. The Punisher is good versus Infantry, but the Battle Cannon and the Demolisher are better against armor. If you are going to field Russes, take Pask and 2 Command Tanks with BCs and possibly a couple of Punishers. On a 2+, Pask actually starts go make the BC work. On a 3+ rerolling ones on an order from Pask, the BC is OK on the command tanks. To use the orders from the command tanks, take a couple of Punishers. You'll still need Basilisks and / or Manticores to take out heavy armor, but the tanks should at least pull their weight.

      One thing continues to worry me though, the averages on the BC are one thing, but the variance is quite high. This thing looks to be really swingy which could make it unreliable.

      • vaguelycertain says:

        Oh, I know the alternatives are worse. Just raises the question of whether you should really be investing in russes at all. As you say, if you take pask etc they can be ok, but so can a lot of things if you commit to them heavily enough.

        The variance is frustrating, I can already tell it's going to be a weapon that people swear is fine because of that time once they did a huge amount of damage, entirely ignoring all the times it achieved nothing whatsoever. To be fair, that kind of dependence on luck probably appeals to some people.

    • ShadarLogoth says:

      I don't know about that. They are making some pretty unfavorable assumptions, the primary one is you'll be BS 4+ to hit and won't you your reroll or anything else to buff that.

      Even given their numbers, they aren't doing a very good job of interpreting them. Against MEq, for instance, their monte carlo kills 3 or more models 28.82% of the time, and 2 or more 42% of the time. That's really pretty close to in line of the old BC against a competent player who doesn't hand you his models on a pie plate.

      Against T8 3+ (so 5+ after AP -2) vehicles their simulation is getting 2 or more wounds 33.56% of the time. That's hardly out of the realm of what most anti-vehicle weaponry can expect.

      Gearing their simulation for all 18 possibilities has a deceptive impact on the data. And, for the record, this comment "I may have done something wrong too, but as long as it isn't an egregious error I think that based on both of our results that we can say that rolling the fabled 18 damage against a target where it will matter isn't going to happen for a player over the duration of 8th edition…" shows they completely don't understand how many dice are rolled in 40k. I would bet large sums of money that it _will_ happen.

      • wellspokenman says:

        Getting that 18 damage will probably happen, but it will be a level of rarity that no player should ever expect to see. People win the lottery all the time, but I don't think that means that someone should expect it to happen to them.

        • ShadarLogoth says:

          Yeah, well said. The chances of it happening for any one individual are quite low, but for one of the thousands of people playing hundreds of games over the next couple of years, it will happen to someone.

      • vaguelycertain says:

        I don't remember there being anything allowing you a straight reroll for a battle cannon? Just the tank commander giving you a reroll one's to hit, which is hardly a trivial investment. What other buffs are there?

        To be honest I didn't even read their interpretation, I just looked at the numbers. It's not unusable, but the average is pretty disappointing due to the probability of doing nothing whatsoever being quite high. I don't think the battlecannon was a good weapon before so treading water is hardly something to celebrate.

        Their comment was just a reference to the fact that you would expect an 18 wound result to occur on average for how many rolls they simulated, yet it didn't happen. Perfectly plausible that it was just bad luck, it's a very unlikely result.

        • ShadarLogoth says:

          Fair enough. It's treading water against MEq, but it's damage numbers against High T multi wound targets has jump substantially.

          The chance of any BS 4+ weapn in the game doing nothing are pretty high.

          • vaguelycertain says:

            Sure, but the only real question is whether it's worth putting in a list now. I'm not seeing much to recommend a basic russ over artillery or infantry. I would like to see the numbers with pask's bs 2 and rerolling ones on bs4, since that definitely seems like the most likely way people are going to try and use it.

            • wellspokenman says:

              These are rough, but Pask should put out about 1.8 wounds on a another Russ with the BC. A command Russ with an Order about 1.7. A command Russ without an order 1.46. These aren't bad numbers compared to the Space Marine Chart above. They aren't great compared with the Artillery though.

    • ShadarLogoth says:

      I should also add, again using their unfavorable assumptions, It's dealing 6+ wounds against a Rhino 4.56% if the time and 6+ wounds against a Land Raider 1.28% of the time.

      Again, against other anti vehicle weaponry those numbers aren't awful.

    • Track says:

      Reddit page not found

  17. Stormandreas says:

    Loving the look of the Flamestorm cannon! Especially that Vulkan allows you to re-roll its wound rolls!!! (Yup, its Adeptus Astartes <Chapter>, meaning it can be a Salamander Redeemer and benefit from Vulkans rule.

    My Whirlygigs are also looking really nice to. Might consider using 2 of them instead of 3 Double Heavy Flamer Speeders and an Apothecary.

    • Vulkan1214 says:

      Think you’re confusing 7th with 8th and just being wrong.
      Vulkan He’stan, in 7th edition, had a special rule that allowed all melta weapons carried by salamanders in his detachment to become twin linked.

      The salamanders chapter tactics allowed their flamers to reroll to wounds.

      The melta rule is still around but it’s not army wide anymore. So atm salamanders don’t get to reroll their flamer wounds.

      • Kirby says:

        Vulkan has the Forgefather rule – re-roll failed to hit and wound rolls for friendly Salamander models within 6" of Vulkan that are firing melta or flame weapons.

  18. professorlust says:

    Anyone got maths for how the snipers mortal wounds special rules imapcts this?

  19. alberto says:

    i disagree a bith with grav be a thing; look the range ; is 24" then look ath the lascannons is 48".

    This gona be a lascannon meta, and that's why what they said make sense about havocs; i was wondering havoc vs predator and 5 model +4 lascannon are 140pt the exatly cost of 7ed.
    Predator with 4 shots gona cost 202 pt (have 5 wounds more).

    Now i still have to read the rules but as my guess goes

    if wounds from 1 single shoot do not scale then 5 havoc/devastator are >> predator and are cheaper
    this also escalate better for CSM as you can nurgle them which mean against old deep strike stuff you can use command points to stop them being charged first turn and t5 will provide high resilence vs bolter saturation.

    you cant go wrong, take 6 heavy detachment with 3x maulerfiend and 3x havoc sqand. Bring also 1 lascannon in every of those 3 troops.

    Total of 15 lascannon which can raw x new rule move and shoot with just -1.. IF enemy dare to bring rhinos he gona face totall annihilaiton.
    Im very curois about the effect of the standards; they all cost 10 pt each one fromt he leak maybe tzeench give re roll of 1 lol with lascannon that would be hilarious who know:

    Also as previous you said all large blast weapon from 7ed are very udnerperforming now which is bad. Veange weapon battery got a lot badder. Heldrago cost a bit less than the turrets but have almost same output and it's not that great all, i see heldrake be x1 max multiple wounds stuff will be a thing (aka terminator, primariis, 2w xenos).
    I thinkg about chaos termi this gona be thair worst edition unles they have acess to other stuff exept combi-melta because these stuff got from 5 pt each of 7th ed to 27 pt each of 8th. They are also mandatory in pack of 5 so chaos player can say goodbay to their 110pt termicide.
    With enemy able to block your assault with command points (idk how much every turn) and your suicide squad cost skyrocket they basically nerfed all csm configuration again:
    In all of this i only see viable a lascannon spam list. Cannot be blocked, is safe, can move and shoot better than 7th, is also chepaer than all other configurations..

    • Desc440 says:

      Missile launchers over lascannons, imo. There doesn’t seem to be that many T8 units from what I’ve seen, so the S difference isn’t going to make a difference too often, and the extra flexibility of the missile likely makes up for the slightly worse AP.

  20. OMGNINJAS says:

    Excellent mathhammer here, thanks for the chart! I have been playing some 8th edition on table top simulator thanks to your blog 🙂

  21. Orthon says:

    I am not seeing plasma being the "go to weapon" honestly. It has been nerfed substantially (7th ed vs MEQ: 1.111 killed, 8th ed: 0.741, a 33% decrease). Just actually try killing things with it now with it wounding on 3s and things getting 6+ saves. It is frustrating. Also the wounds on things have gone up by more than 100% on many things. Plinking a wound or two off just won't cut it with things having dozens of wounds.

    The meltagun still wounds on 2s no save against infantry. It can do 6x more damage than a plasma gun against the multi-wound things.

    • wellspokenman says:

      Range. A Plasma Gun can Rapid Fire on a drop, being less than 12" (probably 9) away from the target. 2 Str 7 -3 AP shots are going to be better that a single Str 8 -4 AP shot. Supercharge it and blows the Meltagun away against any thing that doesn't have more than 2 wounds.

  22. alberto says:

    i will be very interested in heard opinion in anti hordet set up bit with actually some very good anti horde set up.

    Flamers seems nowhere near what we hade in 7ed with battle cannons. It see imo for now that all auto hit with d6 hit stuff gona be when we have for now. IT feel like you're army will need to be more and mroe cc oriented.

  23. Awesome stuff! Thanks for doing the hard work! Will share on my local Singapore group's fb group.

  24. onecrazymojo says:

    A missing component of your analysis is point efficiency. As is, you are only comparing lethality, but when you take into account option costs, the flamer is actually surprisingly efficient.

  25. Kolomaq says:

    With the release of the new Spacemarines codex, it says Deathwatch can use Primaris marines. Does that mean they have access to the special ammunition in their fancy new bolters?

  26. Matt says:

    Hey Neil,

    this post is pure gold! But could you please help a newbie picking the best weapons for his sergeant? Is there a list for the best choice for both ranged and melee? Or do I have to play in a way, that the squad never will be charged?

    Best wishes from Germany,
    Matt

    • Desc440 says:

      Depends on what squad you are refering to. Combi-plas is the go-to for Tacticals, in any case.

    • Andy says:

      I agree with Desc, if you are new to the game, go for Combi Plas+Chainsword on the sergeant for tacticals.
      For scouts go storm bolter + chainsword
      For devastators go chainsword bolter
      For assault marines go chain sword plasma pistol
      For intercessors go basic gun with aux grenade launcher
      For hellblasters basic gun

      • Desc440 says:

        Why Storm Bolter on Scout Sgt?

        • Andy says:

          Always storm bolter if you have the points, even on an 11 point body. For scouts it represents a 20% increase to their damage output for only a 2% increase in price.

          An acceptable return. i don't like giving him much more, his life expectancy is really low, and can easily buy a plasma elsewhere.

          Oh i was assuming this was for modelling btw, you should buy a tac marine sgt melta bombs before you buy him plasma.

          • Matt says:

            Thanks for the quick reply, Andy! That helps a lot 🙂

          • Desc440 says:

            Interesting point about the Storm Bolter. Will take that into consideration.

            I disagree with you on the meltabomb, though. Plasma is in all likeliness going to be used a lot more than your grenades over the course of the game.

            • Andy says:

              My wording was off sorry, i think I buy the guns for tacticals in this order, or i tend to, it does depend on lists (tacticals are the best way to fill out any firepower missing):

              Chainsword on the Sergeant
              Melta Bomb for the squad
              Plasma for the squad
              Stormbolter for the Sergeant
              Plasma for the Squad
              Power Axe for the Sergeant
              Upgrade to Combi Plas for the Sergeant

              The reason i didn't advise power axe on the sergeant for a new player, is i think there are a lot of times i cut the power axe for points, i did agree with combi-plas for two reasons.

              1) when you first learning the game, it is -so- much easier if all your units guns behave the same as far as range.

              2) when i first started i was forever confused what to shoot at what, plasma is pretty good to fire at everything. I would take as much as i could.

              • Desc440 says:

                I never put meltabombs on my Tacs. They're cheap but with a 4 inch range, the likelihood of getting to make good use of them isn't great. There's something to be said about being prepared for all eventualities but there is just so much efficiency in the game right now that I feel this is something our already generalist army can ill-afford to double down on.

                • Andy says:

                  yeah, well you hit the nail on the head there, i just don't take tactical marines

                  • Matt says:

                    Could you post a typical list you would play with?

                    • Andy says:

                      Don't have my main PC with me so missing most of the lists and my database of my recent opponents, the main list i've used recently is:

                      Tempestus/Raven Guard

                      5 Primes
                      1 infantry squad
                      5 * 5 scions with double plas
                      5 * 5 tempestus command with quad plas.

                      3 scout sentinels
                      3 astropaths
                      5 * 3 Heavy weapons teams with mortars

                      Ravenguard Batallion Detachment

                      1 Kayvann Shrike
                      1 Lt with jetpack + relic.

                      6 * 5man Scout squad (2 H bolter, 1 missile launcher)
                      1 * 5man Aggressor squad with bolters.

                      15 units on the battlefield, 15 in reserve.

                      I've also run these

                      Space Marines (Salamanders and Grey Knights)

                      Draigo+Captain
                      3 * 5 Strike squads with falchions
                      Ancient with sacred banner

                      LT + Captain with jetpack
                      4*scout squads with stormbolter, 1 with heavy bolter
                      2*Missile+Las Dreads
                      3*Dev squads with double las, double Heavy bolter

                      Fortifications
                      Castellum Stronghold with air defence and castellan launcher and comm array
                      Primus Redoubt with quad icarus

                      Raven Guard Battalion
                      1* Tech Marine with Conversion Beamer
                      1* Jetpack captain with teeth of terra
                      3 * 5 scouts, 3 stormbolter, 2 H bolter
                      1 * 6man aggressor squad with all the bolters.

                      Imperium Batallion
                      2*Prime
                      2*Scions (4 plasma)
                      2*Command squad (8 plasma)
                      1*Sisters Squad(2 stormbolter)
                      3*1 Acolyte with stormbolter

                      Orks.
                      2 Battalions

                      Ghazgull Thraka
                      Bigmek with KFF
                      2 Weirdboys (Da Jump and Warpath)
                      6*30 Ork Boyz with Choppa, Nob with Power Klaw
                      Painboy
                      Nob with Waagh Banner

                      The other lists i don't have to hand at the moment, theres generic Harlie/Ynarri (not sure this list ever changes much you can guess whats in it). Some eldar variations including silver spears and drukhari.

                      Nids theres two lists, a swarm of termageants supported by the deepstrike stealers and the heavy first turn alpha strike in melee list (runs a Scythed Hierodule as the main threat to support the stealers and flyrants).

                      There's numerous chaos lists, but the effective one is the three super heavy's backed up by horrors, again, no list to hand, but its basically just Aetaos, Magnus and Mortarion supported by Horrors, with an alpha legion detachment thrown in to get the Stratagems and mess about deepstriking if it gets first turn. This list is just a point for point massive upgrade over the 4 knights stuff you should be used to.

                      I'll try post them if i have time to work them out quickly tonight. As for the lists of stuff i've been fighting, i can't help ya, will let you know in a few weeks when i am back home