Next Tournament – Marines

As much as I would like to have all my Tyranids ready, I know I will not be able to paint that much in that timeframe (early September). So while I am going to be practicing with Tyranids my next tournament preparation will be for Space Marines since very little painting will be required (while I am keen to continue giving Tau a go, that also requires painting and / or borrowing minis again).

Obviously the new Space Marine book is out and we will hopefully have 2-4 more books out by that point so there is not a clear Marine advantage with recosting of points and extra stratagems. I’ve been tossing up between two options – Dark Angels with Azzy and Darkshrouds making a very strong shooting base (4++ and -1 to hit in a 6″ bubble) or Girlyman Mech. The extra flexibility of Space Marine stratagems / Chapter Tactics makes me feel like Girlyman has edged Azzy here now somewhat although you lose the Imperial Soup list flexibility and have to pay higher taxes if you want advantages like Defenders of Humanity / Chapter Tactics.

With these concepts in mind, let’s take a rundown of two quick list building exercises. Girlyman first.

The point of this list is to stay as mobile as possible using Girlyman’s re-rolls to counteract the -1 to moving and bring in lots of low powered shots to take advantage of his re-rolls to wound. This makes the start of the list really easy to write – Girlyman and 4 Razorbacks with twin Assault Cannons and storm bolter.

Roboute Gulliman – 360 points

Razorback w/twin Assault Cannons, Stormbolter – 102 points
Razorback w/twin Assault Cannons, Stormbolter – 102 points
Razorback w/twin Assault Cannons, Stormbolter – 102 points
Razorback w/twin Assault Cannons, Stormbolter – 102 points

This takes our point total quite quickly to 768 but gives us some very good firepower across infantry (56-64 shots from the Razorbacks) and tougher creatures (41.67% per S6 shot to force a save or 10 wounds to anything with a 3+ Sv) but there is very little multi-damage shots here so chewing through high numbers of wounds will be tough. Girlyman is also a very decent counter-charge option all by himself with a hefty number of attacks though he is certainly not a dedicated sweeper.

So we need to add some multi-wound damagers but I also want to take advantage of the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic and Defenders of Humanity which means some boots on the ground. Let’s take four small Tactical squads then for the Razorbacks.

5x Tactical Marines w/Grav-Cannon and combi-plasma – 108 points
5x Tactical Marines w/Grav-Cannon and combi-plasma – 108 points
5x Tactical Marines w/Grav-gun and combi-plasma – 95 points
5x Tactical Marines w/Grav-gun and combi-plasma – 95 points

The gravs help against those tougher targets and while I would probably prefer 4 Grav-Cannons here, I only have two models. The grav weapons with their S5 really enjoy the re-rolls offered by Gulliman (as do the plasmas) though these guys are the most likely to not have the re-rolls throughout the game as they grab objectives and protect against charges. I’d really love a big blob of Terminators but not sure I’m going to have the points. Screw it, let’s plug them in and see what we get.

7x Terminators w/Assault Cannon and Teleport Homer – 291 points

This is a much better deterrent than just Girlyman against assault armies, particularly as your horde armies will likely bounce off the Terminators durability and Chapter Tactics will allow them to roll backwards and shoot with double tapping Storm Bolters. That said, the expense is quite large – we are up to 1465 points without any HQ, Dreads or Preds. Let’s rectify this.

Chronus w/Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons, Stormbolter – 226 points

Chronus’ Pred is a huge target and no more durable than a normal Predator but he’s a cheap HQ at 35 points and I have the feeling I’m going to run out of points here quite quickly. If I am somehow able to keep the Predator alive, he is scary even at 1 Wound. Predator Autocannons with re-rolls to wounds are also some of my most favourite weapons in the game. So let’s get another.

Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons, Stormbolter – 191 points

I love how Predators went down in cost… Let’s quickly do a points tally. 1882 points and I’d still really like some Rifledreads – while they are not as durable as your Predators / Razorbacks, they do not degrade and have access to Chapter Tactics. 8 S7 shots with Girlyman is also powerful – 75% chance to force a save on anything T7 leads to about 9 wounds against a 3+Sv model thanks to its 2D characteristic. That’s almost as much as all the Razorbacks Assault Cannons (though they obviously do significantly more damage against infantry models due to their number of shots). Let’s just throw them in and see where we end up.

Dreadnought w/2x twin autocannons – 136 points
Dreadnought w/2x twin autocannons – 136 points

We also need a final HQ. Telion is a nice, cheaper, choice but with no Scouts to buff, is a bit wasted. We don’t need any of the buffing characters like a Captain / Chapter Master, etc. as we have Girlyman (a hidden cost of his lists btw are needing him + 2HQs). A Librarian / Tiggy would be a great defensive tool – Null Zone is still vastly underrated and Deny the Witch options should never be sneezed at but I know we are going to be well over on points. Screw it and let’s see where we sit.

Chief Librarian Tigurius – 130 points

He’s more expensive but gives you double the defensive powers and can helps out Girlyman just that bit more as a combat sweeper. Let’s see how many points we are over… 2284 – yikes. Lets drop the Terminators.

1993. Much easier to swallow though I think the vulnerability to combat is quite strong and it will be important to sacrifice vehicles as necessary. We have enough multi-damage coverage now through the Preds, Dreads and Grav / Plasma Weapons and the Assbacks alone can handle a 10 man squad of MEQs or 30 man squad of Boyz. I’m not 100% sold though I am very amused that this is basically a 5th ed mech list with some characters thrown in. Potentially replacing the HQs with some Techmarines to peel off wounds on vehicles as needed may be an idea and free up some points somewhere else – a small Scout squad? ASM / Vanguard Vets for some increased mobility? Not sure but the core of Girly/RBacks/Preds/Dreads is there.

Roboute Gulliman – 360 points


Chronus w/Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons, Stormbolter – 226 points
Chief Librarian Tigurius – 130 points

Dreadnought w/2x twin autocannons – 136 points
Dreadnought w/2x twin autocannons – 136 points

5x Tactical Marines w/Grav-Cannon and combi-plasma – 108 points
5x Tactical Marines w/Grav-Cannon and combi-plasma – 108 points
5x Tactical Marines w/Grav-gun and combi-plasma – 95 points
5x Tactical Marines w/Grav-gun and combi-plasma – 95 points

Razorback w/twin Assault Cannons, Stormbolter – 102 points
Razorback w/twin Assault Cannons, Stormbolter – 102 points
Razorback w/twin Assault Cannons, Stormbolter – 102 points
Razorback w/twin Assault Cannons, Stormbolter – 102 points

Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons, Stormbolter – 191 points

Totals: 1993 points
23 infantry, 8 vehicles
9 Command Points
10-14 drops

So Azzy. We have a lot more flexibility in bringing in options here and Azzy is a lot cheaper than Girlyman while still providing the re-rolls to hit bonus. The lack of re-rolls to Wound though does drastically change the weapon loadouts you are looking to take – read: more lascannons but his 4++ makes the entire army incredibly durable.

Easy start then.

Azrael – 180 points
Librarian w/Jump Pack, Force Sword, Boltgun, Engulfing Fear and Aversion – 128 points

Darkshroud w/Heavy Bolter – 138 points

We have our 2 HQs and our bonuses – -1 to hit bubble, -1 to hit psychic power with some denial options and re-rolls / 4++ bubble. We are then going to add very similar firepower styles akin to the Girlyman list – a couple of Predators and a couple of Dreadnoughts.

Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons, Stormbolter – 191 points
Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons, Stormbolter – 191 points

Dreadnought w/2x twin autocannon – 136 points
Dreadnought w/2x twin autocannon – 136 points

Taking us to 1100 points without any boots on the ground or Razorbacks. Four Razorbacks does seem about the right amount but we definitely do not want Assbacks here so either twin Las or Las plas. Let’s go two of each.

Razorback w/Lascannon, twin plasma gun, Stormbolter – 112 points
Razorback w/Lascannon, twin plasma gun, Stormbolter – 112 points
Razorback w/twin Lascannon, Stormbolter – 117 points
Razorback w/twin Lascannon, Stormbolter – 117 points

That does feel like a lot of Lascannons (10 so far) and we are up to 1558 points already. I’d like to grab a Conscript blob or two and need a sweeper unit of some sort to keep my lines clear after I Fall Back. Let’s get the Conscript blob going first.

Company Commander w/Chainsword, Laspistol – 30 points

Astropath w/Laspistol, Psychic Barrier – 15 points
Commissar w/Bolt Pistol – 31 points

30x Conscripts – 90 points
20x Conscripts – 60 points

226 points gives us 50 bodies of chaff and three characters to support them (i.e. making them usable) along with another layer of psychic defense in the Astropath. We are at 1784 points and still need one more Troop and some sort of sweeper unit. If we can somehow make 4 Troops, 2 FA and 1 HS we could also make a Brigade… ya not going to happen. I feel our multi-wound damage is also far outstripping our horde managing capacity – 50 Conscripts with FRFSRF will certainly do some damage (11 forced saves at long range for all of them) but other than the strapped on Stormbolters, the list is lacking in this area right now.

We are in Imperial Soup mode though so we could theoretically grab anything from anywhere to buff this and I must say, Stormbolter Acolytes are one of my favorites – at 10 points they are one of the cheapest options to get Stormbolters. Grey Knights are 21 points and Dominions are 13 points but neither can get into the Transports here. Let’s grab 4 squads.

6x Acolytes w/6x Stormbolters – 60 points
6x Acolytes w/6x Stormbolters – 60 points
6x Acolytes w/6x Stormbolters – 60 points
6x Acolytes w/6x Stormbolters – 60 points

This chews up all of our remaining points and then some without leaving us enough room for a sweeper unit. Let’s drop a squad and a Lascannon Razorback taking us back to 1867 points and still needing an extra Troop! 5 Scouts with Snipers are cheaper at 75 points but leave us no options for a sweeper. Grey Knight Terminators could fill both but aren’t exactly cheap. Rough Riders are cheaper and something I do not have. Celestine is a monster but does not fill the Troop need. I do have the extra HQ so I could drop the Libby in favour of Celestine (22 point increase for a very good sweeper) and have plenty of wiggle room for the third Troop which needs to be independent of a Transport. I could make it a Scout Squad with extra points to throw on things like Hunter Killer Missiles, etc. or I could try and make use of Celestine’s extra Faith ability with a Sisters squad (though I would need to lose another Acolyte squad for this).

Let’s try this first (so we have 171 points to play with).

5x Sisters of Battle w/Meltagun and combi-plasma – 77 points

Immolator w/Immolation Flamer – 103 points

I could go a Repressor as well to have a mobile bunker pewpewing twice per turn which is rather tempting… Let’s just take a look at this first.

Celestine – 150 points
Azrael – 180 points
Company Commander w/Chainsword, Laspistol – 30 points

Astropath w/Laspistol, Force Barrier – 15 points
Commissar w/Chainsword, Bolt Pistol – 31 points
Dreadnought w/2x twin autocannon – 136 points
Dreadnought w/2x twin autocannon – 136 points
6x Acolytes w/6x Stormbolters – 60 points
6x Acolytes w/6x Stormbolters – 60 points

5x Sisters of Battle w/Meltagun and combi-plasma – 77 points
27x Conscripts – 81 points
20x Conscripts – 60 points

Darkshroud w/Heavy Bolter – 138 points

Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons, Stormbolter – 191 points
Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons, Stormbolter – 191 points

Razorback w/Lascannon, twin plasma gun, Stormbolter – 112 points
Razorback w/Lascannon, twin plasma gun, Stormbolter – 112 points
Razorback w/twin Lascannon, Stormbolter – 117 points
Immolator w/Immolation Flamer – 103 points

Totals: 1980 points
69 infantry; 9 vehicles
8 Command Points (+1 for Azzy and +1 for an Elite detachment)
16 – 19 drops

Somehow I’ve dropped 20 points somewhere. This list is a lot more diverse with a lot more bodies on the ground and while it has less firepower, has a bit more mobility with Celestine / go out and touch you Immolator and has a lot more durability in its core Marine bunker which could help it when going second (which it is more likely to than not). It does require painting though with all of the Conscripts and characters lying about unpainted.

So let’s hear thoughts. And marvel at the spam / soup.

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94 responses to Next Tournament – Marines

So you're going to get 6 tanks, 20 tactical marines, 7 terminators and two dreadnoughts all within 6" of Guilliman? Is that even physically possible? I know we don't have to worry about templates and blasts anymore, but a big blob like that just doesn't seem tactically sound.

No. Without conscripts this list will work vastly differently but your first Turn or two is generally looking at maximising your damage across your entire mech / dismounted but then spreading out and applying Girlyman in particular areas that are most needed. The first few times I played lists like this / Azzy, I didn't play mobile enough or break the bubble enough and either got pinned in (example bat rep of this coming one day) or fell behind on Maelstrom.

Something often overlooked is the fact that rerolls happen before modifiers, so in the case of moving Razorbacks and Rowboat G. rerolls, you wouldn't be able to reroll 3s to hit because they only count as misses when modifiers are applied. And Girlyman ability only lets you reroll misses.

My 2 cents ๐Ÿ˜‰

It would have been fine if they'd just gone with a sensible rule template – any given reroll should be either "You can reroll any rolls of 1" or "You can reroll any rolls". It's words like "failed" and "misses" that screw the rules up, since it doesn't make sense for a roll to 'fail' until you're comparing it to a target number after modification.

I agree completely. Even if it is a deliberate balance decision to temper rerolls and buff "-1 to hit" it is confusing and counter-intuitive.

Yes. Pointing out how I would have done things differently is at least 50% of my enjoyment of wargaming in general. I don't have time to paint, or play… but arguing on the internet while at work? I got loads of that kind of time. ๐Ÿ˜›

"You can re-roll any failed hit and wound rolls for friendly ULTRAMARINES units within 6" of Roboute Guilliman."

Unless this was changed in the codex and I am unaware.

Yep there's no doubt that you can reroll misses for the razorbacks but you still do rerolls before modifiers are added. So your razorback moves, rolls 2s and 3s to hit you can reroll the 2s. Then you add the -1 for moving so the 3s are actually misses without the opportunity for reroll

Seriously. If you roll a 3 with a heavy weapon moving you can't reroll it. Because it hit. Then you check for reroll, no reroll, cuz you hit. Then you miss because you have -1 to hit.

Rerolls before modifiers. Guillotine, Draigo, helbrecht, it doesn't matter.

It's silly but quite clearly laid out in the FAQs.

Unless you are Cawl, Lord of Mars.
Cawl doesn't care about puny modifiers.

Cawl will re-roll any to hit roll.

Couple of points about the Marine list:
-If you don't have 2 more gravcannons, go wtih 2 plasma cannons. If you don't have plasma cannons, go with plasma guns. Gravguns are shit now.
-Techmarines should be your HQs here. They're cheap and will help keep your parking lot going.
-Invest the spare points in turning the Rifledreads into Venerable Rifledreads. Well worth it.

That's a solid idea re PCs over GGs.

The second iteration of the list had no Tiggy and Techies instead.

I've never been a fan of the extra 20ish points on Ven Dreads – though effectively being able to move and shoot at a normal dread's BS is always handy.

I ran the numbers a while back. Ven dread upgrade is worth the 20 pts. It's not a MUST, but if you have the spare points, you should.

For the Marine list, I would consider dropping Tigurius and bringing a Techmarine instead. The ability to repair wounds to your predators and dreadnaughts will put a ton of pressure on your opponent to spend all his shooting on a single target each turn. Its a nice 75 point force multiplier. I’m not sure what those extra points free up for you, but I think you should consider it.

Also Chronus is nice, but honestly you’ll get more mileage out of a second Techmarine for all the reasons I stated above. With the Killshot strategem I think it makes the predators so good at killing vehicles you don’t particularly need Chronus. This leaves you with the ability to put one techmarine upfield with the assbacks and one in the backline with the Preds and Dreads which really messes up your opponent’s target priority.

In a comment I posted earlier (but is stuck awaiting moderation) I proposed swapping out Gulliman for Calgar and added a third Predator. Marneus brings almost all of what Roboute does, but at a significantly reduced cost, and a third Predator would add some target saturation as well as enable the Killshot stratagem.

Gulliman hits like a freight train in mรชlรฉe, grants +3 CP, and allows re-rolls to hit and to wound.
Calgar hits like a freight train in mรชlรฉe, grants +2 CP, and allows re-rolls to hit.

Yeah, I’m gonna call that “almost.”

I think you massively underestimate the importance of Guilliman's rerolls to wound. If you did, you'd see that they really aren't almost the same at all.

Adding in a cheap LT isn’t as powerful as Re-rolling all wounds but it definitely takes the edge of not have Guilliman.

Because you don't want to play Ultramarines? My marines are Raptors, and between Lias Issodon and the RG chapter tactics I'm happy with their strengths.

And because come the first chapter approved, or whatever they call the 40k generals handbook, you can put fairly safe money on Gulliman going up significantly in points.

True, I was too broad in my use of "Marines", much like Ish was too broad in his use of "everyone". But if Guilliman is available and relevant, not taking him is directly and deliberately reducing your army's power unnecessarily. He is always an optimal choice for any Ultra list.

I wouldn't bet on Guilliman going up in price just yet – if they were going to do that, they would have done it in the Codex. I predict they'll bring all the other Primarchs into the game first before they consider balancing them.

Fair point about the other primarchs, and I'm sure we will see all of them eventually, but GW seems to be jumping hard on balance these days since flyer spam got errata'd almost instantly. The first batch of codicies would have already been at the printers when 8th hit, and there would have been no time for editing. Assuming they keep their promise and we get the Chapter Approved book, I am positive we'll see a lot of points changes.

Have to agree with this – AFAIK all 10 of this year's books were already laid out / in print by the end of June / early July so there would have been no edits and the same errors we have seen throughout would likely remain.

I would expect Girlyman to get a price hike – 50/60 points would not remove an entire unit but certainly another support character. I imagine he will go up 100+ though at some point or… they keep their edition fluffboy alive and make him cheaper!!!

10 to 20% would probably be about right. Probably closer to 10%. 400-420 points would really make you think twice about taking him, and he'd still be good at that price.

Yeah, let's face it – with the current dross they keep churning out, it's entirely fluff-appropriate for Guilliman to appear in literally every Imperial army. He's single-handedly saving the universe, everyone else is just there to Witness Him.

It's not only fluff appropriate, it's actively IN the fluff. (Seriously, he wins like every major battle listed for the Imperium, across both the Imperium side of Insert Drama Here Warp Storm and in the Dark Imperium. Presumably ANOTHEr of Cawl's asspulls is the ability to freely teleport wherever needed).

I suspect the flyer spam change was less about relative strength-to-points and more about massed flyers actually breaking the core gameplay – they could have increased the points costs of various flyers, for example, but that wouldn't have addressed the underlying problem.

Still, if they do manage to make the Chapter Approved thing work and regularly re-balance the points costs, that will be neat. I think they will really need their army-builder app to be released before they can support that, though.

Agree re Tiggy and the Techies – AA had modified that in a later list version. They can also be cheaper than 75 points – according to Battlescribe anyway.

Killshot does need 3 Predators and then it's easy to break apart just by killing one Pred – same goes for Chronus obviously but he is cheaper (I for some reason also thought he had a repair ability when he disembarked but it does not appear he does).

You probably only need one-two Killshots per game and it should take longer than that to kill a Predator… It’s not a foolproof plan, but it’s a nice option to add to the toolbox.

Most lists should be able to drop something much bigger than a Predator in a single turn. Both lists above for example could manage it easily. Depending upon the list, they will be a high priority anyway and it's unlikely you could hide all 3 Preds T1.

So from curiosity, you know that Azreal and the Darkshroud are Dark Angels only, yeah?

Just asking because it seems like you have not a lot of Dark Angels to take advantage of the two bubbles

Correct – the bubbles are only impacting the vehicles (sans the Immo) – so your 3 Rbacks, 2 Preds and 2 Dreads will win a shooting war against equivalent firepower. I can do the math later to see how much improved they are but it then messes with your opponent's target priority. The Immo stands out as the odd egg though.

Ehhh, true to both you and Kadeton.

I guess it's just the purist in me that finds mixing and matching like that to be distasteful. It just feels weird to see three armies mashed together like that all trying to do different things.

Plenty of people seem to feel that way! I've never really understood it – it's always seemed more sensible to me for the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines to coordinate with each other.

The much bigger problem for me is the idea that the Imperium's only Living Saint and the Grand Master of the Dark Angels both show up to fight side-by-side at the same tiny skirmish. That just feels wrong.

Agree particularly for Imperial armies – was a little more eh in previous editions when Tau were Bros with Eldar and SM though or Necrons being convenient with everyone bar Eldar, etc.

They were having a romantic evening when the fight broke out. Not their fault.

At least Celestine actually CAN warpshift across the galaxy (as of her incarnation as the Emperor's Daemon in Fall of Cadia).

I mean, yeah, it's bizarre that they'd both be there, but….-shrugs-. That was kind of always the case of using a special character. "So, the supreme leader of all of Cadia is in this battle. With like, 30 guardsmen.".

Two characters, the Darkshroud, five tanks and two dreadnoughts – how much more would you expect to cram into two overlapping 6" bubbles? That's a pretty sizeable footprint.

Would the Ultramarines’ list work if you swapped out Gulliman for Calgar and added a third Predator? Marneus brings almost all of what Roboute does, but at a significantly reduced cost, and a third Predator would add some target saturation as well as enable the Killshot stratagem.

Unless it changed in the codex, Girlyman's re-roll wounds is really important and not what Calgar can bring. If he's lost that, then I would be looking at changing the entire list.

Danke – was moderately concerned.

Ish – re-rolling wounds is a pretty big change; 160 points difference is big as well but as above, that would change the list drastically if not available.

It's a screengrab from my digital version of the codex I just took and uploaded.

Anything in particular you need?

Calgar merely brings +2 CP and re-rolls of failed to hits… But he only costs 200 Points, quite a savings compared to Grandpa Smurf.

Re-rolls to wound is where it's at. Consider, for an extra 160 points you can get an extra 1.5 Razorbacks.

Re-rolling hits / wounds from 4 moving RBacks against T7+ = 17.78 wounds
Re-rolling hits from 5.5 moving RBacks against T7+ = 14.67 wounds

Girlyman is categorically better than Calgar. I love Calgar – one of my favorite models and very sad I don't have my old 3rd ed version but Girlyman's re-rolls to wound are pretty big. Math up there shows that just with 4 -6 units he's exceeding Calgar – spread that bonus over more models and the gap gets bigger (I believe his base is bigger as well so easier to get more in the coverage).

Yeah. Calgar is decent, and can enhance an army pretty effectively, but Rowboat is absolutely brutal. Not only does he have an expanded aura distance (potentially out to 12"), the reroll to wound is absolutely huge in an edition where most things will wound on 3s, 4s or 5s. Moreover, he is also vastly tougher than Calgar with his greater wound count, 3++ save, and ability to stand back up once per game.

Calgar is good. Rowboat is meta-defining.

Recalling from memory here but it was something like:

3x Hive Guard
2x Biovores

Trygon Prime w/Adrenal & Toxin
13x Hormagaunts w/Adrenal

Iconward, Primus, Magus
10x Neophytes
3x15x Purestrain Genestealers

Company Commander
2x Wyverns

Why the Iconward/neophytes? The horm squad looks really small for being ferried with a trygon, and I doubt dumping a solo trygon in their face is really going to go great for it either ๐Ÿ˜› . Would be interested to hear how it's gone?

Re-rolls for Morale and 6+ FNP from Iconward is solid for the GSC Stealers. Neophytes – I wanted one ranged / bubble wrap unit for the backfield though Termagants is probably the better option – more bodies but no backfield gun.

Trygon will not go alone obviously ^^ – you either drop early T1 and assume your shooting is clearing what you want or you drop T2 but have had a lot more shooting hit your lines; will often depend on who goes first as well. Hormagaunts are not a large unit but are there to simply tie up more things with their crazy long pile in and consolidate moves.

When it hits the table I will let you know – this is all theory atm. I have to paint literally everything on that list bar the Hive Guard and half the Genestealers let alone assemble Malanthrope and IG vehicles when they arrive.

"Re-rolls for Morale and 6+ FNP from Iconward is solid for the GSC Stealers."
The 6+ is models, not units, which as far as I'm concerned drops it from 'decent' – I don't want something heavily restricting the amount of space my models cover for charge shenanigans.

Reroll morale? Drop the iconward, turn the Magus into a Patriarch. Complete morale immunity, same psychic powers, and a strong cc Character for ~25 pts more. Also means you have less drops for deployment/reserves, but don't think that's a huge concern there.

"Neophytes – I wanted one ranged / bubble wrap unit for the backfield though Termagants is probably the better option – more bodies but no backfield gun. "

"Trygon will not go alone obviously ^^"
Solo MC is what I meant. Flyrant (~same survivability) in my opponent's face has usually evaporated. And ~300 pts for something that'll likely get blown off the board if they don't make 8" charges is a lot to pay. That said, shooting may reduce their firepower enough to survive (I've been doing pretty melee heavy, usually with at best token shooting outside of a couple of exceptions), and you at least have other high T targets who'll take advantage of that firepower going elsewhere.

"Hormagaunts are not a large unit but are there to simply tie up more things with their crazy long pile in and consolidate moves."
Oh, I know what they're there for – 6" pile in/consolidate is something I'm looking forward to mucking around with ๐Ÿ˜› . I just think you'd get strong marginal returns for bulking out the unit a bit more – more models to soak overwatch/tie up more units/surround more effectively/stretch coherency to the point of stupidity/take up space against transports or Fly/survive for longer.

Then again, you're fairly light on for things to drop at all…

Ugh stupid me – ya okay not being a units bubble is far less enticing given the way you want them ranging out and tying up other units which makes the morale less fun as well. I can certainly get the Patriarch but then I lose some CP as I don't have as many HQs. Losing drops in that regard is a double edged sword (just like having them is) – I could place 8 things in reserve and let my opponent place that many units before having to deploy anything of significance on the table (though I also have the Commander to block infiltrators if necessary).

…duh re Conscripts lol (no idea why I did not think of this). But I won't have a Commissar to keep them around so Termagants are probably the better options.

Ya the goal there is target saturation – I find 40-60 Genestealers, while scary, does not make my knees weak as an opponent when there are a bunch of multi-wound things running around (I do want to see what Toxin Sac Genestealers do though to that impression; doubling their rending damage is a thing). A Trygon can change that all by itself and while unlikely to one round a durable target, can clean up the wounds the rest of the Genestealers left. If there are 40+ Genestealers, the Hormagaunts and Trygon running around at that point, the target saturation is certainly there.

And yes more Hormagaunts would not be amiss! I'm debating simply adding another Trygon + Hormagaunt collection but do not want to skip out on enough shooting to chew through bubble-wraps and put pressure on durable things at range.

Anyway this is all theory atm or from games I played against / have watched – once I get them on the table I will have a better idea. I.e. the game i played at the recent tournament I could turtle, broke the Genestealers and had all of Turn 4+ onwards to move and take objectives / deal with the rest of the army. Unfortunately due to time I could not do that so lost but if there had been something bigger / scarier in my face, I would have had a more difficult time rather than deleting a unit of Genestealers each turn.

"I can certainly get the Patriarch but then I lose some CP as I don't have as many HQs."
How? I mean, I think you can only run that in a Vanguard (probably needs a Patrol or something as well – I think only 2 HQs in a Vanguard?), so dropping an HQ doesn't change anything.

Tnx. I was hoping for something more pure tyranids.

But I see your list very well. Guard and Nids long distance, 5 different flawours of ranged +

genstealers midrange to interscept.

Pure Nids has a similar backfield on the Nid component but probably more units – i.e. another Hive Guard unit or additional bodies and another Exorcine plus another Trygon, bigger units of Hormagaunts and then either Flyrants or spore Swarmlord.

GSC Genestealers are bloody scary though with Cult Ambush so I would question not taking them quite strongly at this point when there are no benefits of using the pure Tyranids index.

To be fair to myself, I have not run the math on toxin sac Genestealers in terms of doing more damage to vehicles than GSC stealers.

I tested dreads on the weekend – twin auto is amazing but against 2/3+ saves, especially in cover, they didn’t feel as good as they could. My Auto/Las with rerolls (from Kantor) on Venerable dreads however did the job like a champ. 3+ rerolled on the move is very reliable, and you can rely on ven dreads to get the job done even outside the commander bubble. This matters when you have proper LOS blockers on the field.

Also the two lists don’t have anything to drop behind the enemy – at least the terminators in the original list before they got cut could come down and threaten objectives or rear guard units/characters / etc. Maybe that doesn’t matter but I think it will especially as tournaments make lists more complex.

Also, which tournament?

Moving 3+ models with re-rolls have the same chance to hit as a stationary 3+ without re-rolls. (1/2 + (1/3*1/2)).

Battle of the Bush V

66.6% chance of a hit with a non reroll 3+
75% chance of a hit with 4+ (moving) rerolled (50% first shot, 50% on the reroll)
83.3% chance of a hit with 2+ not rerolled (ven dread)
88.8% chance of a hit with 3+ rerolled (2+ moving or 3+ stationary)
97.2% chance with 2+ rerolled (ven not moving)

Plus you get the straight up 1/6 durability upgrade via venerable.

-1 to hit modifiers are applied after you re-roll dice. So you do not re-roll 3's.

So it is effectively 50% chance to hit when moving, re-rolling 1's and 2's as the -1 has not been applied yet, and you get another 50% chance to hit with those dice. After re-rolling 1's and 2's remove and 1's, 2's and 3's.

Yes the durability increase is solid, effectively making them 9.3 wounds.

As for your Assback/Grav list, best to monitor how Germany's SM list is doing at the ETC this weekend.

ETC format is not the best indicator as you can avoid your weaknesses – this list would also be a sword list so would be actively put up against lists it should beat (the DA list would be more of a shield list given its defensive capabilities).

What are you guys thinking is the best weapon-choice for Tacticals in Razorbacks?

Is it Gravcanon + Combi-Plasma?

The 3++ guys put together a nice article and spreadsheet about this ( Inside it’s 24″ range, the gravcannon is hands-down the best especially against Power Armor and Terminators. It even has a better average damage output against Rhinos than the lascannon. For longer range, the Missile Launcher isn’t too bad; the flak strategy gives it additional flexibility. The lascannon and multi melta would be odd choices for a tac squad but are good at what they do. In short, grav-cannons should be the default.

Combi-plasma is also the easy answer. However, I think flamers should also be considered depending how you use your tacs. Flamers are better against guardsmen, etc and generally in overwatch, etc.

Compare the grav cannon to the deathwatch frag cannon. The only category it loses on is vs 3+ or better armour with t4 or t7+. In these areas it it is incredibly close. As soon as gravs ideal targets disappear, the frag cannon massively outperforms it, it is better vs stealers, orks, guard, tau, elder and necrons. Vs terminators it is 2shots 2+ wound 6+ sv auto kill, 150/216 vs 4shots 3+ wound 5+sv 3+ kill 128/216 so better vs terminators. Vs marines 7shots auto hit, 3+ wound, 4+ sv, 364/216vs 4 shots 3+ hit, 3+ wound, 6+ save 320/216 also better vs marines. It is marginally worse vs primaris. But outperforms on over watch by roughly 500percent.

Because this single weapon is so effective vs the grav and only 2pts more and spammable as a troop choice, it makes picking any type of marine army but deathwatch an incredibly hard to justify in effectiveness. Point for point the kill squad with frag cannon at only 49 points is so effective that the question becomes is there any point in taking any other units? I have used two small bike units to help me seize objectives, then put teleport homers on my objectives in terrain in my deployment. I stick a unit on each teleport homer, then add a terminator with thunderhammer and ss to my 3 other squads. Because I have very few, but expensive units I usually go first and kill between 2 and 5 enemy units. In 5 games only one unit has ever successfully deepstrike and succeeded the 11inch charge into terrain, but in the end it just led to the deaths of terminators for the loss of one kill squad. The unique tyranid lictor is a viable threat, but it has died to over watch every time it tried to charge.

I would suggest taking a look at 5man deathwatch kill squads with heavy weapons. A 1k army with 12 heavies boasts a considerable amount of firepower, is nigh on immune to charges due to flamer insanity and can do really clever things with the addition of a single bike terminator with storm shield (essentially gives each squad a 2w 3++ shield that cleans up mêlée and lets you reposition as needed) vanguard vet to each squad allows retreat and fire. I am using a librarian and chapter master as hq's and while I would likely lose to your lists, with an additional 1k points I think you would struggle greatly. The deathwatch weaponry is so superior it justifies using that chapter over any other.