Astra Militarum Previews – Catachans and Mordians

Astra Militarum previews are starting with some Regimental rules and thankfully the handful of rules leaks we were sitting on have been revealed as correct (internal yay to self for sitting on them) re Catachans and Russes. Moving past me patting myself on the back (I may be operating on about three hours sleep these past 48 hours…) and there are some good signs for the vehicles of the Astra Militarum so far…

Firstly, Catachans Regimental rule allows them to add 1 to their Strength in combat and 1 to their Leadership if within 6″ of an Officer. More importantly, they can re-roll the dice on random weapons on vehicles. So basically you have a set of free Command Point re-rolls on those bigger weapons that you sit there and scream at when they fail you. …aren’t Catachans not supposed to be good with tanks? Obviously this is trying to encourage the use of heavy flamer vehicles butttttt is likely going to be much better on things like main Russ weapons and artillery (not that artillery needs any benefits…).

Throw in the return of Grinding Advance which allows Russ main turret weapons to ignore the movement penalty and fire twice when moving less than half their inches in movement and Catachans might have some decently scary Russes rolling about. That does seem counter intuitive to their fluff… but both are nice bonuses to one of the most iconic vehicles which has felt a bit lack lustre so far in 8th edition.

The rest of the Catachans Regimental Doctrine does not seem that important but depending on how big units work, +1 strength on 40 attacks will make a difference. Let’s be clear though, the vehicle weapon re-rolls are what you are after.

The Vortex Missile Stratagem does not exactly scream making Deathstrikes viable, particularly at a cost of 3CP. The Vicious Traps Stratagem at 1CP could again be great for a big combined unit that gets hit on multiple fronts (1CP for 4 4+ options to deal D3 wounds is a decent bargain) but not as worth it against just a bog standard unit. That being said, a single character or strong vehicle hitting you could be worth the shot to try and tip the math in your favour.

The Mordian Doctrine is a slightly weird one – base to base allows +1 Leadership and +1 on Overwatch shots (when they fix their wording) for that unit which can be useful in some corner situations but lacking board presence for benefits in only a few scenarios is not great. If it was +1 to hit for Rapid Fire weapons or something of the ilk… well that would have been better. Vehicles get this bonus if they are within 3″ of another vehicle which is a bit better but again, not something you’re bending over backwards for and certainly not better than what we have already seen from Catachans.

Defensive Gunners at 1CP is a decent corner case for some vehicles and is certainly not worth sneering at but is not something that will always be useful.

It sounds like Veterans, or units in general, may get specific orders depending upon their Regiment which is a great way to add more flavour and the Mordian one is fantastic. Rapid Firing sniper plasma teams are definitely a lot scarier than the normal sniper rifles we have seen. You overcharge those Plasma guns solider.

All in all, some really good options to start for the Astra Militarum codex previews and really needed changes to Leman Russes. Hopefully, this continues and I am sure we are looking forward to see what they are doing with Platoons and Conscripts.

 


 

Regimental Focus: Catachan

There’s a new Astra Militarum codex on the way, and with it, distinct rules for 8 regiments! Regimental Doctrines work similarly to Chapter TacticsLegion Traits and forge world dogmas. Each Regimental Doctrine is designed to reflect the varied ways the Astra Militarum fight, and have been specially designed to reward a wide variety of army builds. Every Regimental Doctrine applies to both your infantry and vehicles, meaning whether you’re marching with the Mordians or claiming victory for the Valhallans you’ll be able to do so with the army you want to build. We’ll be previewing some of our favourite Regimental Doctrines all week, starting with the legendary Catachans.

Catachan armies have a two-part Regimental Doctrine designed to reflect the impressive strength of the jungle fighters:

The first part of Brutal Strength is fairly handy, and can allow your infantry to press the advantage in melee against weaker foes like Fire Warriors. Where this ability really comes into its own is with the second part; Catachan tanks are going to be among the deadliest in the game thanks to their reliability. Using a Wyvern and want to make the most of the quad stormshard mortar’s 4D6 shots? Love the Leman Russ but wish the battle cannon was more reliable? Want to ensure the Shadowsword’s volcano cannon puts down a pesky Renegade Knight? Pick the Catachans for your regiment.

Best Units

There are all sorts of uses for Brutal Strength, and nearly all of them are more sensible than using the Deathstrike – but none are quite so fun, or quite so Catachan. After all, what is the deathstrike missile but the tank-based equivalent of an enormous bicep? With each hit causing a mortal wound, every single shot counts – Brutal Strength makes sure the deathstrike missile lives up to its name.When you really, truly want an enemy dead, the Vortex Missile Stratagem should all but guarantee that your target is obliterated:

Of course, if you like infantry-based Catachan armies, they’re still a solid choice, with Catachan Command Squads being a particularly powerful option. Equip yours with a heavy flamer and four flamers, and you’ll have a devastating close assault unit, bolstered considerably by the unique Catachan order, Burn Them Out!

If anyone charges you, they’ll have to walk through a wall of flame, and then, if you’ve got a command point to spare, suffer some deadly mortal wounds from Vicious Traps.

Whether you’re looking to create a particularly devastating armoured column, or just really, really like flamers, there’s a lot to love about the Catachans. Tomorrow, we’ll be going from the shirtless to the suited-and-booted with the Mordian Iron Guard, a regiment designed to excel at defensive order – and equipped with a unique order that’ll spell doom for any enemy looking to exploit the seeming safety of characters.


Regiment Focus: Mordian

Mordian armies are famed for their supreme discipline, forming unbreakable defensive ranks that can repel even the most dedicated assault. On the tabletop, Mordian armies now play true to their background, capable of waging warfare defensively while making deadly scalpel strikes against characters with a potent new order.

The Regimental Doctrine

Parade Drill adds some much-needed insurance to your units against getting charged, rewarding you for careful positioning of your army. From humble Conscripts to even the Baneblade, there are few units that don’t benefit from this rule.

Best Units

A squadron of Mordian Leman Russ Punishers is going to be a very scary prospect for any would-be unit of tank hunters to charge – particularly when throwing in the Defensive Gunners stratagem – making them a superb screening unit for your squishier infantry. Leman Russes in every regiment have also seen a small points discount and a fantastic new ability designed to do due reverence to the 41st Millennium’s most iconic battle tank.

Grinding Advance now allows any Leman Russ moving at under half its allotted Move value to fire its primary weapon TWICE, while still allowing the unit to fire Heavy weapons without penalty on the move. Armoured regiments – in the Mordians and beyond – are going to be very dangerous indeed in the new codex.

Veterans are a key component in any Astra Militarum list, thanks to a versatile range of equipment and a great Ballistic Skill. In a Mordian list, plasma gun veterans are going to be essential thanks to their unique order, Form Firing Squad!

Being able to pick off key supporting characters and shutting down aura abilities is going to be game-changing for Warhammer 40,000, and will be superb against lists that rely on their characters to survive.

Mordian armies are perfect if you want to punish assault armies, or if you’re just sick of powerful enemy characters. Tomorrow, we’ll be looking at the Vostroyans, an army designed to defeat your enemies by outranging them – find out more tomorrow!

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93 Responses to “Astra Militarum Previews – Catachans and Mordians”

  1. DeathTard says:

    Us folks without codexes will just play each other for a while

    • DeathTard says:

      Hard to hang with an army of snipers, double shot Russes and hordes of cannon fodder who haven't yet taken a nerf bat to the face

    • Ish says:

      They’ve already confirmed that there’s going to be eight codices this year and have stated that they’re hoping to get ten out. The game only debuted in June! They’ll be averaging a little less than two codices a month if they keep on schedule… What more could you reasonably expect!?

      • Noone says:

        More than 1 non-imperium dex in the first 5 woulda been good.

        • Ish says:

          Good news! There _are_ two non-Imperial codices in the first five!

          #1 Codex: Space Marines (July), #2 Codex: Chaos Space Marines (August), #3 Codex: Grey Knights (August), #4 Codex: Death Guard (September), #5 Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus (September)… with #6 Codex: Astounding Militant Trademark due out in October.

          • Andy says:

            Death Guard is chaos? But….. i need the movement buff from RG they are soooooo slllooooow.

            • Ish says:

              Noxious Blightbringers have a 7″ aura giving Death Guard units within range a d2k1 Advance. Then there’s the bonus rule for Battle-Forged Death Guard Detachments that removes the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, Advancing and firing Assault weapons, and bumps the double-tap range of Rapid Fire weapons to 18″.

              Given that most Death Guard units “prefer” to be engaged in a close range shooty game and not in assault, they actually aren’t all that slow…

              • Andy says:

                In my last game, i failed a charge with tychus when he landed, that was his game done, he cast a few spells and tried to catch up as things ran away~

                Partly why i want to be able to roll on both chaos boon tables when i kill something then i can be speedy! For some reason though, my friends think this is not what is intended by the rules~

    • Andy says:

      There's nothing yet to give imp guard more or less of a chance against ynarri or chaos demons than they had before, smite battery or bust is still the only options. They are getting across the board buffs to units you could never field if you wanted to win, but as of yet we saw nothing about the actual units used to win games as imperium menagerie.

      Space Marines had a codex for ages and are in a pretty bad place, personally, i'd quite like to get the later codex for 'nids the way 40k works it's always best to be the last thing released

      No reason to nerf stuff if you can just buff things to be better, everyone is happy.

      • abusepuppy says:

        Yeah uh sorry IG ain't the codex that's suffering right now. They're top tier.

        • Andy says:

          IG is not top tier, it is in fact one of the worst performing armies in the game. Please understand the difference between IG and imperial soup.

          Its like saying Chaos Space Marines are top tier because Magnus is in the top chaos army or Craftworlds are top tier cos you can put Shining Spears in an Ynarri list.

          The index is making a massive difference to all the total dross IG units you couldn't put on the battlefield, as of yet, the few units that made the cut have been nerfed (conscripts) or left unchanged because they don't benefit from any of these rules, they are in a mixed detachment of imperium.

          • You're shooting major holes in your credibility bud. IG has won Nova and BAO in the last couple of months. Unless your definition of "top tier" does not include winning major tournaments your statement is simply not factual.

            • Andy says:

              That wasn't IG it was imperial soup, and that's my exactly my point.

              • Ish says:

                Could you please explain your definition of “Imperial Soup,” because I suspect it might be different from what the rest of us mean when we use the term. According to BoLS, see link below, the winner of the most recent NOVA Open played an Imperial Guard army that contained thirty-five (35) units… Only two (2) of which were not Imperial Guard.

                Yes, it revolved around a metric f–kton of Primaris Psykers, Conscripts, and Mortars. But all of those are “native” to the Imperial Guard. But that’s quite a different thing than being “Imperial Soup.”

                http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/09/goatboys-40k-nova-open-winner-andrew-gonyos-killer-list.html

              • BAO was pure IG: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017

                Nova was IG plus one unit of Seraphims and the Saint: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/09/goatboys-4

                You can call the Nova list soup if you want, as long as I never have to eat your cooking. However Guard comes out after all the codices land, they are solid right now. If you are going to throw out "one of the worst performing armies in the game," you'll need to back it up with something. Right now you're just throwing grand statements around and giving the impression you have no idea what you are talking about.

              • Ish says:

                The winner of the most recent Bay Area Open, see link below, used a conceptionally similar list to the one that won NOVA. Oodles of artillery, gobs of pskyers, and a sea of conscripts… But I don’t see a single non-Imperial Guard unit in the list!

                http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-the-unbeatable-list-bao-2017.html

                • Andy says:

                  Hmm, i think my definition of competitive is somewhat different. You can field dozens of armies from many factions that are stronger than the BaO open stuff. (take a look at the top 5)

                  Nova I looked at a little more closely as it had a reasonable selection of armies (still lacking optimisation but closer to good) and Chaos thrashed most things, from memory it was 3 of 4 top 4?. This trend continues all over the place, ynarri/chaos dominant, and yet all focus is on conscripts IG.

                  This is coupled with my own admittedly anecdotal experience that beating conscripts isn't hard, beating horrors is. I've tried to explain why i have little to no issues beating conscripts, and illustrated conscripts weaknesses at length, even conceded at an average level of skill they are good, but against a good player, especially a good player playing harlies, they are a liability, It is smite that is allowing the army to perform so well.

                  I wasn't aware that the list only had 370 pts of none IG, but i was aware it had two none ig detachments (celestine was in supreme command I recall) but thats beside the point, those points are essential to have, there is no replacement for celestine, and the sister squad, the sister squad was a really nice touch, i'd been using a cannoness as my double move/double shoot/double melee unit, but i also use more astropaths and an inquisitor, and field a full brigade + battalion so have many more CP

                  I have been playing a very similar list as soup for sometime (scouts over conscripts, aggressors over taurox, more plasma) i think i posted it on the site somewhere.

                  I will continue to wait until i see if there are any changes to smite before i think that there is any change to the meta, russes are much better but still gonna be a liability vs harlies, super heavy tanks are much better but still get globalled by magnus, infantry units are buffed now massed 30" range lasgun fire may be enough vs the brimstone/pox abomination so might be better than scouts, and i won't need to take space marines to get maelstrom missions either.

                  Overall i stick to my original statement, IG are not top tier, they are quite a lot worse than Chaos Soup, Ynarri/Harlie and Imperial Soup, the major reason being when you think of what you want in your army as imperium, celestine is at the very top of the list.

                  • Ish says:

                    In other words, the faction that you said is not one of the top ranked factions in the game is, in fact, one of the top ranked factions; the army lists you dismissed as “Imperial Soup” and not Imperial Guard are, in fact, Imperial Guard and not Imperial Soup; and the unit that other people say they have trouble with you, personally, don’t have trouble with and therefore their personal experience is invalid.

                    Did I miss anything?

                    • Kadeton says:

                      Yes: that 'competitive' has a 'different definition' as a purely theoretical measurement, unaffected by any evidence-based observation of reality. The fact that a faction is consistently winning major tournaments is completely irrelevant – the only way to determine whether a faction is competitive is to ask Andy.

                    • Andy says:

                      i care not a shit for factions, i care about Armies. As for evidence-based observations, i suggest you stop looking at single tournaments, at single armies within that single tournament, and instead take a look at the performance of armies as a whole and run a statistical analysis of that. The winner of Nova is a highly skilled player, adapting an army to be an up to date response to the meta, no doubt we must consider the army to be good for him to have selected it to play.

                      Nova was one tournament, open fire was another, check out how IG did there and decide how evidence-based your observations are.

                      I have in fact argued that all factions have a method to be competitive, it is about understanding the meta and tailoring the army, winning or losing one game is not the issue, it is being able to win consistently, and allowing luck to help you, whilst diminishing the effects of bad luck.

                      My statement was Ynarri and Chaos are top tier, as is imperial soup. Absent tournament results I am un-aware of, this is still the case, with those three armies consistently outperforming others. I would consider celestine to make an army soup, if its IG with her in, fair enough, it changes nothing, IG armies have a terrible record on the whole, only slightly better than space marines who are torrid, which strikes me as strange considering "Roboute Guilleman is so overpowered" oh wait no, my bad, it doesn't strike me as strange at all.

                      Nids are totally reliant on Malanthrope to be viable, with such hugely expensive and chronically bad HQs it is way to easy to make an army that's garbage. This is the IG problem, right now, without their codex, fully 90% of their units are over priced under performing crap. Oh look 3 russes and a baneblade, free win for me. You can make good armies, but you can always always make better Imperium armies, and why wouldnt you? you get -nothing- for being IG.

                      This is what is changing, this is what to look at in the Ig book, now, have we seen anything yet that really threatens to make IG more viable vs horrors and harlies?

                      Vs harlies yes, yes, we got better close combat, double to triple leman russ viability, and a much better chance to hurt things if we go first, will it be enough? who knows. Vs chaos? well everything is cheaper and better which will help, we can now shoot magnus to crap on turn 1, but past that not sure, will wait and see.

                      we didn't see any smite changes, and we got minor nerfs to conscripts (cos i don't really care if they fall back and fire, I care if they fall back at all). and no changes to plasma yet, so we should still be good to go on bolters plasma and smite.

                      Which, was my original point, as of yet, the status quo seems to have remained, with the qualifier that, punishers replacing taurox/aggressors, and a bunch of strategems will give much more incentive to stay pure IG and not pick up a space marine detachment for stratagems and missions.

                    • Kadeton says:

                      Mate, from everyone else's perspective you're just another pompous internet blowhard who loves to present their own opinions as gospel. We're here to have a proper discussion. If you just want to argue semantics and constantly move the goalposts to ensure that your statements are technically "correct" no matter what, you're just wasting everyone's time. Give it a rest.

                    • Andy says:

                      I think you'll find, i keep trying to put the "goalposts" exactly where i said they were, i reiterated my intial statement, clarififed why i hold that opinion and provided evidence for why i believe it to be true. In this very discussion i conceded that you can consider that army is IG, and it changes nothing. That's not moving the goalposts my good man, it is simply pointing out even when the best IG army piloted by the best IG player is taken into account it barely does anything to move IG's win rate up. and its an army that went 8-0 6-2.

                      I certainly invite you to enjoy a proper discussion, but i think you'll find, stating a case and supporting it is the foundation of discussion, insulting people and speaking for others is not.

                      If after reading my arguments, you still feel that Conscripts are the reason games are won, that's fair enough, it might behove you to be a bit more open minded and try out some of the tactics others suggest for dealing with them, understand the interactions with their own army and their purpose and maybe you'll find out different

                      It doesn't matter now, conscripts will no longer be an issue, imp guard infantry is considerably better and conscripts are nerfed, we'll never know if the trend towards chaos/ynarri/harlie continued to push them completely out the meta (or as i have already pointed out, just forced them to bring twice as many).

                    • If you enter an ITC Major Event and finish in the top 5, as both the person who's input you flatly rejected, and the person who runs the site have done this season, I'm sure we will all hold your opinions in much higher regard. Here are the ones left for the US:

                      Michigan GT 40K Championships, Lansing, MI, 10/7-8
                      Dragonfall 40K Championship, Dragonfall, St. Charles, IL, 10/20-22
                      SoCal Open, Del Mar, CA, 10/21-22
                      Renegade Open, Plymouth, Minnesota, 11/17-19
                      Las Vegas Open 2018, Las Vegas, NV, 1/26-28/2018

                    • Matt-Shadowlord says:

                      FYI The army I won the Southern Hemisphere Open with last weekend was the Imperial guard. It was all IG except for the addition of Celestine, so not a ‘soup’ list, and wasn’t heavy on psykers.

                      It’s not as big a deal as nova etc, but still a pro event with some very good armies and players. I was 6 for 6 at this tournament and 3 for 3 at the smaller event a few weeks ago, with little lasgunners 🙂

                      Anecdotes are not the plural of data but there is a reason so many people disagree with your opinion about guard not being competive.

                      There are just too many examples of guard being quite capable of winning.

                    • Andy says:

                      Yeah, i knew it was IG with Celestine, perhaps you could enlighten people why is it Celestine is so vital to an IG army that she has to be taken and not run pure IG? If you didn't have her, what would you replace her with?

                      I conceded already, it is player skill not army selection that decides games, most armies can win if the player knows how to play them (and has reasonable luck) Likewise the vast majority of players cannot field the army they choose they have no choice but to play whatever they own. Meaning a debate on what is best is kind of pointless.

                      Another question if i may, what prompted the decision to run less than 100 conscripts? it seems to be a little light, not enough to overload anti infantry firepower.

                    • Matt-Shadowlord says:

                      Celestine was a late addition; she wasn't essential (to be completely frank, I'd won 15 games in a row with pure IG before adding her, but she is such good value and I saw a great way to model Darth Vader as something better than a Power Sword Lord Commissar and succumbed to temptation. 😀 )

                      I ran less than 100 conscripts because I wanted to spend the points elsewhere -specifically on offence rather than defence. At this event, playing against the people with the best level anti-infantry (Dark angels, Dark Eldar and Orks) I took a healthy level of casualties on turn 1 (50+) and then took out a lot of their anti-infantry and the casualty rate dropped right down from then on.

                      YMMV

                    • No One says:

                      "Darth Vader as something better than a Power Sword Lord Commissar and succumbed to temptation. 😀 "
                      Ah, was wondering why he was flying now. Neat 😀 .

                    • Matt-Shadowlord says:

                      And Force Lighting attacks! (D5 S5 Autohits)

                      How could I possibly pass that opportunity?
                      But to answer Andy's question; tempting, cheap, powerful, versatile – but not essential for Guard to win IMHO.

                    • Kadeton says:

                      You: IG aren't competitive in 40k.

                      Others: That's clearly false, IG are winning major competitive tournaments.

                      You: Oh, but that's not what I meant by 'IG'.

                      Others: Those armies are clearly IG.

                      You: Oh, but those tournaments weren't really '40k'.

                      Others: Don't be an ass.

                      You: Oh, well then that's not what I meant by 'competitive'.

                      If you're twisting yourself into logical and semantic knots to 'prove' that your 'original' argument is 'correct', then I guarantee that nobody is going to take you seriously. That's not 'stating a case and supporting it', it's stating a falsehood and then redefining the terms until it's both 'true' and meaningless.

                      That's why it's not a proper discussion, and why everyone is having a go at you – you're not adding anything of value, just making sweeping, controversial statements and then responding to people pointing out the obvious flaws by insisting you meant something else. We're not here to watch you jack off about how 'exceptionally' good at 40k you think you are, and nobody cares whether what you say is 'right' – they care about whether it's worth saying.

                    • Andy says:

                      Sure, your right, its an IG army, but does that change anything?

                      You list two tournaments but ignore the others, and you point out one army, but ignore the rest that were in the tournament too.

                      In the latest fire tournament, chaos and ynarri armies had 57% and 67% win rates, whilst IG managed 26%

                      You want to tell me that is a top tier army? Its just my personal experience?

                      There's massive bias in results based on who can field what army, if i have to wysiwyg in a tournament, I get hugely restricted, I only have 6 dudes with frag cannons, my DW list contains 12, I own close to 100k pts of armies and i can't field the armies I wish to.

                      The brimstone based army has a huge advantage cos it is easy to field, its cheap, and its nuts, it skews results in its favour cos if you own aetaos and magnus you have a duo that can just end games on their own. If you don't, turns out a metric ton of -1 to hit 4++ is still just impossible to deal with and in tournaments, they generally get given objective secured, despite pointedly not having it in the codex.

                      Thats why i liked the nova armies melta sisters to back up the space plasma. It was a good option to counter magnus if he came charging across the map T1.

                      So again yes, IG is not a top ranked faction, hyperbole and media attention =/= truth. Exactly the same thing that makes Roboute Guilleman not good. Remember the whole Roboute Guilleman is the best thing ever omg so broken so cheap?

                    • We listed those two tournaments because they are two of the biggest. The tournament you listed was an 18 person, non-ITC, 3 round tournament. BAO was a 126 person, 6 round, ITC Major Event. Nova was a 212 person, 8 round, ITC Major Event. Your local tournament is not equal to these.

                      So let's recap here:
                      __1. You said there was nothing so far that would make IG "good."

                      __2. You were told IG is a top tier army by a well respected (if not universally liked, amiright Puppy?) tournament player.

                      __3. You doubled down and talked to that player like he was a child.

                      __4. You were confronted with the results of two of the largest tournaments in the US where IG did quite well.

                      __5. You dismissed both lists as Imperial Soup.

                      __6. Told that one of the list was pure Guard and the other was mostly Guard, you then insulted over a hundred players and denigrated the Bay Area Open. You then compared your 27 game tournament to one of the largest tournaments in the US, with way more games in a single round then your local tournament, somehow claiming they are statistically equal in weight.

                      Along the way you've talked down to everyone here, redefined terms at will (i.e. Competitive, Soup), and generally just been an ass. You seem to be unfamiliar with the wider gaming world, so perhaps you should listen a bit more and when you do speak, don't assume that you are far and away the smartest person and best player here.

                    • Andy says:

                      Well first off my apologies if you consider you've been talked down to, that's not my intent, my intent is to show you that conscripts aren't worth anything close to what they are considered, that both smite spam, daemons and harlie/ynarri were the issue.

                      Over the course of this "discussion" i have had several assumptions proved wrong:

                      1) that the tournament scene plays by the book 40k.

                      2) that the tournament scene is the pinnacle of the best players in the world competing having already faced many opponents to even get to the stage they can compete.

                      3) That the people who play in tournaments are much better players than I.

                      The truth is, as i pointed out, 90% of players have gone to tournaments to have a fun day out playing 40k, they've brought their best army, but it's not a custom built best you can get army, I own a metric ton of armies, I can play 20k apocalypse games, but i still cannot field what i would consider to be the best wysiwyg army. I very much doubt the vast majority of the 250 players at Nova and BaO were fielding the army they thought was the best, as i already mentioned, its £400 for a batallion of elysian drop troops, if everyones making that kind of investment for the tournament, you you get competitive, if not, you get random quality armies.

                      If you think its insulting to have your army called bad for including russes and baneblades, its not, i understand fully they suck as did GW, but its what you have, remember Kirby's post? the second he realised his opponent was in their first games he laid off completely, because having fun for -both- players is more important than winning the game. That is the 40k tournament scene.

                      I am exceedingly good at 40k, don't get me wrong, but i would likely get beaten in most tournaments as i simply cannot bring myself to play competitively knowing that i can have infinitely more fun turning your warlord into a chaos spawn.

                      That doesn't mean i won't attend them, it doesn't mean i won't understand probably better than most what makes a good army and how or why things are succeeding in a meta and what can counter them.

                      Why do i care then? because the internet is a place where one view is reinforced endlessly and then people go out and act on this view and end up with total shit. Instead of going, well i think conscripts are an issue, this is how to deal with them, you choose to reinforce conscripts are an issue, as yet, i'm not seeing anyone disagreeing with me, or explaining how you deal with jet bikes denying your fall back.

                      Check out these statements, are any false?

                      1) Horrors counter conscripts because they do the same job but better
                      2) Conscripts do not perform well in armies without smite batteries
                      3) Smite batteries perform well in armies without conscripts

                      Conscripts are an excellent way to beat inferior opponents, (example matts conscripts vs orks, similar skill levels the orks rip straight through all the conscripts t1, matts a much better player with more experience with his army and thus kills many orks for free) that means they get you through day 1 well and intact.

                    • abusepuppy says:

                      Hey Andy, you don't really seem to have any idea what you're talking about. You've made tons of big pronouncements, and then you act all shocked and surprised when we tell you you're wrong about really basic fundamental facts.

                      If you're King Big Shit of Warhammer with all the answers, why do you not even know the very basic facts about the armies that are winning tournaments, the formats that tournaments use, or just about anything else of relevance to how tournaments function. You are either some kind of closeted supergenius who never goes to tournaments and never looks at what is happening in the outside world but somehow has mastered the Art of Warham anyways, or you're talking out of your ass.

                      >Check out these statements, are any false?
                      >1) Horrors counter conscripts because they do the same job but better

                      Yep, false. Horrors and Conscripts are not in the same army and while they have similar general purposes, the existence of an alternative (even a "superior" alternative) unit in another codex does not "counter" anything.

                      >2) Conscripts do not perform well in armies without smite batteries

                      That is false #2. _One_ of the things that makes Conscripts good is the ability to protect cheap Smite characters, but it is far from the only thing.

                      >3) Smite batteries perform well in armies without conscripts

                      Provided they are appropriately cheap, yes. Malefic Lords and Primaris Psykers are both very good units. However, their value is multiplied if you can protect them from harm- and Conscripts are in many ways the most efficient method of doing this.

                      You're throwing a lot of shit about "inferior opponents" for a guy with no tournament record of his own and a one-dimensional army.

                    • "You're throwing a lot of shit about "inferior opponents" for a guy with no tournament record of his own and a one-dimensional army."

                      Hey now, he explained that. He could win all the tournaments, he just chooses not to. He's "exceedingly good at 40k," mind you.

                      Not just that either, he's an all around master strategist. He threw out "IG is not top tier, it is in fact one of the worst performing armies in the game." and after we were all arguing that, he changed his argument to "conscripts aren't worth anything close to what they are considered." Therefore he wins the argument because he's "not seeing anyone disagreeing with me" about conscripts. He simply outmaneuvered us by changing topics in the middle of the argument. He's the goddamn Creed of debating 40k.

                    • Alastores says:

                      He possibly forgot he wasn't arguing about Conscripts in this thread.

                    • Andy says:

                      Well guess i am done arguing about them now, the king is dead, long live the horrors.

                    • Andy says:

                      1) If you run up against the army with superior troops fulfilling the same purpose, you rely on skill and luck to win and overcome your statistical disadvantage. You had a choice to play either army, you chose to play conscripts over Daemons, if your choice was because conscripts are better then i concede your point, fair play to you. If it was, i think the rest of the army bring a better mix and conscripts are good enough, well then thanks. If it was i brought these because i have them or this is my army, or i like IG then great.

                      2) Conscripts simply do not perform anywhere near as well without smite back up, they can be locked in combat, they will get locked in combat, and they are bad in combat. If you cannot fall back and fire, you are in trouble unless you can smite.

                      3) Conscripts are the second best unit for protecting smite batteries

                      "a one-dimensional army" In my last 40 games, I played over 30 different armies. If you don't like my army lists suggest improvements, the same army list from nova that you consider to be the epitome of army creation, is better by my own admission, i don't think i can beat it (unless maelstrom). But it it is an almost identical army with slight nuances and differences, and enough infantry to make it i can't mow it down on turn 1.

                      My other armies include considerably more tankiness i have to take more anti tank, and as you may have noticed, i think the smite batteries are ridiculous OP and boring, and i would rather liek them to get nerfed.

                      Hence i try to draw attention to them, but am faced instead with "not the issue, conscripts OP"

                      Well conscripts are gone. Nuked by GW, they won't see the light of day cos however good or not they were before, they are total garbage now. So lets see if the Meta changes shall we?

                    • abusepuppy says:

                      >If you run up against the army with superior troops fulfilling the same purpose

                      No you don't, because most armies rely on models other than their troops to do the heavy lifting. Moreover, even if two units _can_ do the same job, that doesn't necessarily mean every list _will_ use them to do the same job.

                      >they can be locked in combat, they will get locked in combat,

                      You know there's an order for being able to act after falling back, right? Oh yeah, I forgot, you think that twelve Harlequins will somehow trap an entire unit of Conscripts in combat forever even after losing half their number on the charge.

                      >"a one-dimensional army"

                      Yeah, man. You have exactly one plan: get within 12" and pew pew pew. Anything that stops you from doing that will pretty much cripple your army before the get-go, and anything that can hit your workhorse units (all of which are immensely fragile) before you can hit theirs will likewise roll you over. And the NOVA army, as well as other tournament-winning armies that you consider "not IG" are pretty majorly different from yours in a lot of ways.

                      No one is saying "Smite batteries don't matter." They're just trying to argue that Smite batteries aren't the ONLY thing that makes Conscripts useful, which you seem to think is the case. Because, for example, firing 50 Lasguns into a target followed by charging with 50 models that have two attacks apiece WILL do some significant damage, especially to all those T3 guys with short-ranged weapons.

                      We haven't even seen what the full list of changes to Conscripts are. If Commissars still work on them, they aren't "dead" or "total garbage" at all. Maybe wait until you see the rules before making any more of your grand, kingly pronouncements about the game?

                    • Andy says:

                      Starweaver.

                    • abusepuppy says:

                      Can absorb overwatch but not melee from the Conscripts and most certainly can't lock them in combat if they don't want to be.

                    • Andy says:

                      K good, so half their number there are 12, 48*4/9 = 192/9 = 21 dead conscripts, return damage is 29 * 1/12 is 6 dead harle……wait no its not 6 its 2.5.

                      That's assuming of course the solitaire and the jetbikes found better targets to go kill, if they didn't it really is curtains for the conscripts, they die to pure melee, ignoring the fact the army has a healthy supply of shuriken cannon and catapults

                      Sure your smite battery can clean this up, thats the thing its 10 mortal wounds (assuming 6 psykers) that's 210 pts of assault troops dead whether they are in melee or not, to shooting attacks that took place in the phase before shooting.

                      If you believe that is balanced, go shopping for that kind of firepower elsewhere for that kind of cost. Get your play partners to load up on assault troops, charge your conscripts and try to lock them in melee with an assortment of flyers, jetpacks and anti infantry firepower. Instead of just playing a game, talk to them, say i think i have more of a problem here if you do this, let's see, above all learn to be better, teach people to be better.

                      That's how i work out how i'm going to deal with things, i care less about winning and losing more about working out what is the best.

                      I will likely never know what the best army is, only know armies I really struggle to find a solution to (poxwalkers, primaris redoubt, fortress wall basilisks, sokar, infantry + smite battery, super heavy chaos)

                      I also know that there are some units that are incredible problem solvers (commanders, tempestus plasma, celestine, cannoness, sisters with melta, raven guard aggressors, jetpack captain off the top of my head)

                      Finally are the troop choices and HQs necessary to allow me to field this stuff and get me the cp to use stratagems (conscripts, scouts, horrors and cultists)

                      In my estimation, of the troops, i think conscripts pre-codex are the worst, i would rather see conscripts than see any of the others, they are just easier to deal with and provide far less of a hinderance.

                      I've listened to every argument, been told how conscripts stop me doing the things i do, but it simply doesn't seem to be the case, the smite battery stops me on many more occasions than the conscripts ever do.

                    • abusepuppy says:

                      Yeah, we get it, you think Conscripts and IG are bad.

                      It's just that the players who are winning tournaments, the top players in the entire Warhammer community who have proven their skills over years and years of iterations of tournaments in different editions and with different lists- those people think Conscripts and IG are good.

                      You can take a wild guess at whose opinion I am more likely to consider relevant.

                    • AngryPanda says:

                      At this point we'll need some kind of intervention here. Or we are already in it and that's why it looks so bleak.

                    • Andy says:

                      Or, they may have had IG armies, and the only viable units they had were conscripts cos the rest of their units were bad?

                      To win a tournament like nova i woulda likely used chaos, i think at the time it was the strongest faction, (prolly still is tbh) scouts don't do enough in a meta where early scoring doesn't mean anything. With hindsight, (cos i can't say before i didn't enter) I would have taken infantry killing list with the aggressors in the top armies were all infantry heavy. Without hindsight i would have taken my plasma dudes, cos the meta I play in has a hell of a lot more heavy stuff in than the nova meta.

                      The fact that the winner was IG using conscripts, doesn't mean i don't think that conscripts are good, they just do a job, if you swap them for imp guard do they still do the job well enough for the other components to achieve victory?

                      Were conscripts actually nerfed or not? I don't know, they now come in units of 30, and have 4+ orders, but they get to reroll 1's or have double overwatch and can even have two orders at once. I think it is a nerf, but it isn't a clear cut one, if you think conscripts are great you can invest in them and have them perform much better than they ever did before the book came out.

                      Are they as good as -1 to hit cultists? and -1 to hit 4++ horrors? probably not, its generally a 25% increase to resilience minimum, often a 50% one, but those things don't have Celestine to back them up.

                      The other thing is, like scouts, conscripts actually get to do something when they aren't being a meat shield. Horrors do too ofc, and cultists can, lol k, cultists can't do anything, they really are there to just die.

                      As i mentioned before the Move move move order not being guarenteed anymore is i feel the biggest nerf to conscripts. Smaller units exist, but the methods to give out a lot more orders per HQ also exist and i can combine them too. Before i gave out 2 orders with an HQ, now i can give out 3 and have them sometimes get two orders a turn. also i get to have a big blob of 60, so i can order 120 conscripts twice for the same cost i could order 150 once before.

                      As for relavence, i am happy for you to consider other opinions, and to think i am wrong, but when people post "must nerf commisar/conscripts, way too broken" I am going to point out, if i think they aren't.

                      The actual problem the meta has, is at the moment i think unchecked, but everything GW does makes me believe that is simply a matter of time.

                      Sokar will get nerfed..lol k, joke. Smites gonna get nerfed. (sokar should be too)

                  • Ish says:

                    >> Overall i stick to my original statement, IG are not top tier, they are quite a lot worse than Chaos Soup, Ynarri/Harlie and Imperial Soup <<

                    I am not a "tournament player," by any reasonable definition of that term. Sure, I've played in a few weekend tourneys held in my FLGS over the years, but mostly as an excuse to play games and eat "free" pizza. I've never traveled to a big event and don't have that much interest in doing so…

                    But I know how to read a scorecard and look at statistics. As there is no overall "ruling body" for Warhammer — no FIFA, no IOCC, no NCAA — it's never going to be possible to get statistical information about our game of toy soldiers as it is with "real" games like chess, poker, or sportsball. However, what we do have is the Independent Tournament Circuit (ITC) and the European Team Championships (ETC).

                    Are they as rigorously ranked and vigorously competitive as FIDE chess? Hell no.

                    Are they better than idiots online waving their egos at each other? Hell yes.

                    If you look over the results of all the ITC and ETC events since 8th Edition launched, you will see ample evidence that players using the Imperial Guard faction are doing just fine, almost always placing in the top five if not winning outright.

                    Have a look at the top ten individual ITC players (link below), only ONE of them has fielded a Ynnari army… and he's actually mostly stuck to Asuryani. The rest of the top ten players seem to favor Imperial Guard, Chaos Dæmons, Space Marines, and Renegades & Heretics… and Sisters of Battle.

                    Claiming that Imperial Guard are not top tier when, in fact, a healthy percentage of the top tier of the only measurable results we've got is Imperial Guard is just silly, man.

                    https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-%20rankings/

                    • Andy says:

                      K i happily concede the point, my bad.

                      IG, T'au, Sisters of Battle, Asuryani and 'nids are all on an even playing field. The only army with a significant advantage is Chaos.

                      Player skill (and luck) with an army defines whether it wins or loses more than the contents of the army.

                      Drawing any other conclusions is impossible because there's only 9000 players, and less than 1% can be compared cos they are the only ones with 5 events. It's hard to show trends because there's no way to work out which result was with which books released.

                      If you disagree with any of that let me know.

                    • abusepuppy says:

                      >Player skill (and luck) with an army defines whether it wins or loses more than the contents of the army.

                      This is something a lot of people say, and it really isn't true on the surface level. You can give the strongest player in the world an army consisting of nothing but Chaplains and Tactical Squads and while he may do _better_ than other people would with that army, he sure as hell isn't going to win any tournaments with it.

                      Player skill is one factor in how well a given individual does at a tournament; so is the "strength" of their list (however you choose to define that). So is luck (such as with dice, with matchups, etc.) All three factors contribute to varying degrees and may place limitations on each other- a good player with a bad list will be hamstrung by it, unable to use their full acumen because of having poor tools to work with. By the same token, a bad player with a good list will be unable to bring it to its full potential and "waste" much of what the army can do. A good player and a good list will both have ways to play around spates of bad luck (rerolls, redundancy, shifting strategy, etc) but at times no amount of skill can compensate for the dice.

                      >Drawing any other conclusions is impossible

                      You seem more than happy to draw all kinds of conclusions from far, far, far less reliable data sets, though.

                    • Andy says:

                      >it really isn't true

                      The data set disagrees with you. About the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you can win games with any faction. I'll let you puzzle out the logical implications of this.

                    • AngryPanda says:

                      Mate, I know absolutely nothing about you but you may want to bow out of this while you still have some dignity left. Grandstanding like "I'll let you puzzle that out" is not a good look on someone who spent the last days arguing for something blatantly false, has sort of conceded that after every fact of organised play proved that wrong and now only keeps arguing for pride's sake.

                      I've had my head up my arse before, it happens. But you got to let it go at some point.

                    • Andy says:

                      Yeah it was petulant, can't deny it, but i am tired of this guys tone and lack of intellectual reason to back up his points.

                      I just replied to a post where he for some reason assumed because a unit of 12 harlequins has a T1 charge, it is the only thing in the army that has a T1 charge, i mean, his entire way of dismissing the argument, implies heavily that he simply hasn't played vs it. It's beside the point that i decided that i preferred the safer 2 units of 6 in the end for the extra 3" making it even more likely i am well and truly in the enemies deployment zone

                      We don't get in to that, because the response is "lol my conscripts overwatch"

                      Brilliant if they do, but i have pointed out repeatedly to overwatch a a starweaver to death takes a lot more conscripts than 1 unit.

                      I've pointed out that interweaving your conscripts is a nessecary thing to provide enough overwatch, i know how to use the unit properly, i can do everything that's suggested, I know how to space them based on the enemy army and react to differing threats in differing manners.

                      If they would for once just replay with how they use conscripts to defeat assault armies and not get rolled over when they are locked in melee i'd be fine.

                      I proxied an army of 300 conscripts, 3 groups interwoven and then another 3 groups in a layer 4" behind them, i couldn't stop the harlies locking them in melee, and i couldn't get surface area enough to win in melee. All i could do was smite them to death.

                      I am not the only person that's drawn this conclusion, if people continue to run conscripts and face more pure assault armies it's likely that they will start to figure out that conscripts are shockingly bad at leaving stuff tied up in melee with them. That very simple things can mean there is no retreat.

                      The answer people are using? do not have the things you want to protect on the battlefield unless nesscary, that's why plasma from space. This one dimensional answer, handily enough has more firepower than virtually any other option.

                      I guess my question is, if conscripts are so strong, show me how and why they are, don't show me things i already know and can counter, show me something new, some thing i haven't considered or encountered that says to me okay i should start building armies to counter this.

                      Right now conscripts get gunned down by the firepower neseccary to deal with Daemons, thats how icreate lists 1) i need to be able to deal with magnus/mortarion/aetaos 2) i have to be able to deal with horrors.

                      The firepower i need for primarchs, accidently wipes out space marines, tanks, knights and a plethora of other threats. That leaves me looking for anti infantry problems, because i don't need to kill a commissar or a ig hq. I need to kill malefic lords on mass, which is impossible while their infantry live.

                      add in to that i now need to be able to pop 3 rhino's and wipe out 30 poxwalkers in a single turn.

                      Heck the only reason they aren't arguing RG is viable, is cos i didn't say RG sucks.

                    • Dakkath says:

                      Well the reason your conscripts all got locked in melee is probably because of that interlocking thing. I have yet to read a battle report here or on FLG that uses that tactic. Instead of trying to make some demented checkerboard out of your unit deployment, just set each blob up in its own spot. You can still spread them around. Common formations I see are lines either 1 or 2 thick, or large rings to deny deepstrikers.
                      http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/08/2000-pt-battle-r
                      Go there to see a detailed battle report showcasing tactics for and against conscripts.

                    • No One says:

                      …Yeah, after thinking about it for a bit, I can easily see why interlocking would result in easy tie ups with conscripts.

                      Simply put all your attacks into one squad (1), create gaps in that squad, but not the other. Since 1 is no longer there, but 2 wasn't targeted, now free to surround the perfectly alive members of 2. Really, I'd say you're doing what you've implied previously (I believe) is a bad idea – sacrificing options with casualty removal, coherency, space filling etc for a bit more output. Which gets really awkward if the extra output isn't enough and you prevent yourself from falling back (which is just losing output anyway). Of course, with 300 conscripts, they actually are a lot of your output, but anyway.

                      Where as, if they weren't interlocked, you could just kill everyone with 3" of them. Or whatever – basically if a model could get surrounded due to casualties, kill it as well. If, on the other hand, there's no space to surround (say, everyone's within ~0.9" of each other, slightly less than a harley's base…), feel free to pull casualties from elsewhere and strike back with a bunch of S3.

                      *Shrug* A thing I've noticed you doing in these discussions (which may or may not be true) is that you're giving the assaulting player the 'skill' to surround the conscripts – but are not giving the conscript that same 'skill' to deny it. Now, that may be because there's a 'cut off' where, no matter how good you are, you can't block it. But…I don't think that's the case at all, and, in a battle of equal skill, the conscript player should be able to keep the other out/not stay locked unless things go very poorly. Case in point, I can more reliably keep myself from getting in combat with important stuff/can fall back than the reverse – not indefinitely of course, but on T1 assaults? Not really. And I'd say I'm equal skill to myself 😛 (especially considering I play an assault army and not IG…but I also can literally read my own mind).

                    • Andy says:

                      Sorry, i should have said, the 300 conscripts was an evolution, as was interweaving them, i was playing with them to try find out why they were considered so good.
                      Both were attempts to make them more viable (and it does). I don't give the assault armies more skill than the conscripts, like you i play multiple armies and know the match up from both sides, i always find as conscripts that the issue is to protect my forces as well as protect themselves

                      For instance vs harlies, my consccripts are deployed in rings around my army that is in seperate groups way back, i dont give a damn about my ability to give the conscripts orders and i remove casualties to break the commissars link so many die in the morale phase (deny soul burst) and hopefully let me shoot the troupes, which all said and done are the harlies win condition.

                      Theres nuance to it of course, each game is different, sometimes the assaults too good and the conscripts just have to suck it up in melee until i can try to engineer a way to get shots, i gotta say though if i don't free up my army in 2 turns, i just lose on vp, harlies are utter machines at scooping up vps all over the map.

                      Most assault armies i run are already capable of punching holes in conscripts in the shooting phase, nids and harlies are considerably unlucky if they can't drop 30+ conscripts prior to charges declared, diminished their numbers to the point that charges into the second rank are already possible, or if set up to deny this, the second rank is punished so there's holes in behind for jetpacks so consolidating into the already diminished first rank is easy, they are also generally charging from less than 3". If you get a unit wiped, there may well be a follow up fight phase, this makes spacing conscripts extremely hard.

                      I agree cultists are going to be coming into the meta ever since CSM was released, alpha legion deep strike will give you a massive chance to win any game you go first in and -1 to hit cultists are very much better than conscripts were, i think its 120 s6 attacks and 60 from chainswords for the 'serkers, It isn't as safe as using raven guard aggresors of course, but it is much more damaging.

                      The other reason cultists are good is of course poxwalker army, you have to take DG detachment, you can go redundancy in pox walkers or you can go for cultists instead, i do like some horrors here still (cos when they smite they buff the pox walker mob, giving you the ability to boost army growth) back it up the normal supreme command of smites + warp time(can superheavy or not) and you sort of need a lot of anti infantry to deal with it.

                    • abusepuppy says:

                      > i need to be able to deal with magnus/mortarion/aetaos 2) i have to be able to deal with horrors.

                      Wait, you think that list you posted is designed to be capable of dealing with M&M&A or with Horror spam? (Which, incidentally, a lot of Chaos player are moving towards Cultists rather than Horrors for the same reasons that Conscripts are good.)

                    • Andy says:

                      I agree with the move to cultists, I have been using them with alpha legion for quite some time to get the CSM missions and relics and cos -1 to hit troops are just good. Horrors are still valuable troops since i'm taking the changeling anyway to protect Magnus, and they bring in the CP's super easily (90pts = 3cps, i was already taking the malefic lords)but maybe i swap them for death guard detachment, though I don't own nearly enough pox walkers for it to work (i have 60 i'd need closer to 200)

                      All of this, still doesn't convince me that conscripts are good, celestine is good, primaris psykers are good, but the conscripts are simply the best way IG has to protect it's troops, i was having much more success with scouts than conscripts, a cheaper method to get the same job done which was enabling deep strike of aggressors for the same T1 win condition i got from alpha legion.

                      The changing meta was relegating conscripts, maybe they are back, maybe infantry do a better job now, certainly the relics from ig make me want an IG detachment if i can get them (do they have the extra relics stratagem?) Interested to work out how blood brothers interact with all the new rules, maybe a massive buff to 'nid army.

                    • Ish says:

                      Indeed, it’s an imperfect data set… But, it’s the best we’ve got. As a historian-by-training who has work in the legal field for years and a lifelong gamer, I’m kinda obsessed/fascinated by demographic studies and statistical analysis… and we’re never going to really get that with gaming.

                      Anyone literate in polling / statistics will tell you a self-selecting group makes for lousy data.

                      There’s too many “bottle necks” caused by self-selection to make the ITC/ETC results perfect. People have to self-select to get involved in the hobby, they have to self-select to collect any given army, they have to self-select to participate in a tourney… so on and so forth.

                      To make matters worse, the current edition is less than a year old and we just don’t have many tourneys reporting in.

                      However, as time goes on, I that that watching the top hundred or so ranked players in the ITC and ETC will show some worth. If we see a disproportionate number of them adopt any specific codex over the others, that will indicate a possibly “broken” codex. Contrariwise, if we see them stick to a more even mix of codices, then we’re probably looking at a balanced ruleset.

                    • Andy says:

                      I don't think we will:

                      First off, the data set will always be tiny. Tournaments have different rules
                      and every two weeks the rules on what is good may change (Deathguard poxwalkers was a buff to arguably the meta's strongest army).

                      Secondly the opportunity to change army if you perceive there is a strength is limited. At a cost of £200-£1500 per army, people tend to build a single faction and play it.

                      Finally we need to consider that familiarity is as much a benefit as having the best army, so data needs to be ignored if we see a player playing a new army.

                      With all this to take into account, we are back to individual data points and not a set at all. All we can really do is hypothesise and then analyse data for trends

                      Hypothesis: The chaos daemon based army is too strong

                      Looking at the data there is some supporting evidence (the amount of daemon army wins, and the worse results for players who won with daemons but lost with other armies)

                      But some evidence to the contrary (it hasn't managed to win a major tournament, several players are winning with armies that should suffer vs it)

                      To draw a conclusion at this time is impossible, but as you say, if we start to see more people pick up the daemon army, then we will enter the self reinforcing cycle, it is perceived to be good, it is adopted by the best players, it is good.

                      All that said and done, the data also really fails to identify what an army is and why it is doing well, without the army lists its hard to say, IG baneblades and russes = torrid, IG infantry + smite = good. Both will be listed as IG.

    • Phil says:

      I haven't found that lacking a codex has impacted my orks success or failure to a great degree yet.

    • highwind says:

      because those armies without a current codex, like imperial guard or orks, are totally uncompetitive…

  2. Grinding Advance makes the lesser Russes better, but it turns the already decent Punisher into a beast.

    • abusepuppy says:

      40 shots = 23 hits (rerolling 1s) = 14 wounds = 5 dead Marines (2 if they're in cover.) I mean, that's hardly _bad_, but it's not crazy-strong or anything.

      • Well, it is double the output. I generally run Pask in my Punisher, that's probably skewing my opinion.

        • Andy says:

          Pask is weak now though, he is probably best off in a punisher for sure, but Catachan Demolishers surely beat them vs Space Marines?

          • Dan says:

            8.5 shots (assuming 5+ targets & that you only reroll 3 or lower on the number of shots) = ~5 hits (rerolling 1s) = ~4 wounds = ~3.5 dead Marines (2.75 if they’re in cover.)

            Catachan Demolisher only wins if the MEQ is in cover.

            • Andy says:

              Ya that S5 is nice, you need to see a lot of termies bikes intercessors plague marines etc before Demolisher comes out ahead. Well and it's anti tank is great ofc.

              Punisher also super good vs starweavers (well i say super good, it's as good as anything is).

              If the meta stays infantry focussed then punishers + infantry is pretty nasty. also can fire in melee order means less issues when can't fall back, and can set up deeper cos 30" range. (15" rapid fire). Multi Melta sponsons are pretty nasty with 15" melta range but i think just better to rely on plasma from space and keep them anti infantry.

  3. Craig says:

    Interestingly the Vostroyan preview called out the regimental traits applying to sentinels so it may be these blanket apply to vehicles, looking forward to seeing what people make of these. I’m thinking Vostroyans will spam plasma and melta like hell.

    • abusepuppy says:

      I believe that the Mordion and Catachan articles both explicitly said that Regiment bonuses apply to all units, infantry and vehicles alike.

  4. MindwarpAU says:

    And the vostroyans just got one of the best regimental disciplines – add 6" to the maximum range of every rapid fire and heavy weapon. That's actually quite horrifying since it apparently applies to vehicles too.

    • Still have Cadia, Armageddon, Tallarn, Valhalla, and the Militarum Tempestus to go. I wouldn't crown the Vostroyans the winners yet. Solid, but not game breaking.

      • Andy says:

        Well we don't know if they released any new chars, prolly not, but yes, it's very good, almost certainly the best yet for infantry, still just waiting to see what if anything happens to smite, no change to smite rules and nothing will change.

  5. Cadia will likely have something to do with orders. Steel legion will probably focus on armor and chimeras. Tallarn will probably be scout and movement. Valhalla might get larger infantry unit sizes or somesuch (there's a "Send in the Next Wave" rumor) and the Militarum Tempestus is a complete wildcard. The Catachans show that each regiment might even gain a new ability past what they are already known for, like better armor and artillery. I am pretty interested in what GW has come up with. So far, so good though.

  6. Dakkath says:

    Ok but did they bring back Sly Marbo yet?

  7. MindwarpAU says:

    Valhallan update is out. Valhallans halve the number of models that flee from morale tests, and double the wounds characteristic of a vehicle for the purposes of determining their characteristics. A bit meh I think. But the big news is that conscripts are now limited to 30 man units, and orders only work on a 4+. Failing the 4+ means no more orders for that unit for the rest of the turn.

    Valhallans also can fire into close combats at the risk of hitting friendlies, and can recycle infantry units. Situationaly useful, but not brilliant.

    Baneblade variants no longer get the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, and have a new stratagem allowing them to charge after advancing AND hit on a 2+ when they charge. A pretty neat benefit since it's only 1CP and baneblade variants have 9 attacks.

    • Ish says:

      Poor Commander Chenkov! Demoted from an HQ choice, to a Platoon Command Squad, then to having only a special rule that only affected Conscripts… and now replaced entirely by a rule that happens totally “off the table” and doesn’t require a miniature of you at all!

      хорошенький сладкий принц

    • There's also mention of a Combined Squads stratagem, but only as a disqualifier for Send in the Next Wave. The vehicles thing could be pretty good. Firing at full strength for 75% of your wounds instead of 50% could be frustrating to deal with. The Morale thing is better than it sounds too, if you are running the smaller units that work well with the Send in the Next Wave stratagem. I like it better than the Mordians, but the Vostroyans still have it beat.

    • Andy says:

      Stormlord was always the most viable super heavy tank even with terrible shooting, not sure it is still (the catachans maybe make the others better?)

      Will be sad if there's no way to make them a bit more survivable, they really are a bit too easy to murder.

  8. MidnightSun says:

    Unconfirmed, but there's folks saying that Cadia get re-roll 1s to hit for standing still, with the reroll 1s orders giving you flat rerolls to Hit if you're already qualifiying for reroll 1s. I'm a fan, because I like Heavy Weapon Squads and giving them blanket rerolls is way better than reroll 1s when you're hitting on 4s or 5s; not sure if it's going to be *amazing* for vehicles, but rerolling 1s is hardly a bad bonus. Pretty great on Russes though, firing your turret twice and rerolling to hit is pretty savage.

    • MidnightSun says:

      The downside there being that standing still in lines might not be the greatest thing ever if you want to get objectives and win. But hey ho, shooting things into big explosions is more fun than winning anyhoo.

      • Andy says:

        Yup for sure, but you can easily field other much better troops to take the objectives, ratlings and scouts can already have them, meaning anything that wants them has to come into range.

    • I've heard the same. It was reportedly said on a Twitch stream. I also heard that the Cads are getting the same vehicle random shot rerolls that the Cats got.

    • Andy says:

      Yeah, if this is true you have got the same as the space marine codex, one massive standout selection that is auto taken, and a bunch of other more situational bonuses. I was hopeful i guess that, we'd see a continuation of the bonuses as they are, each complimenting various tactics, making brigades an issue to field and meaning nicely focussed batallions filling specialist rolls are good, but like i say, we need to see how the already good troops shake out before we start to worry.

      • MidnightSun says:

        …sorry, run that one past me again?

        • Andy says:

          There's chapters in the space marines codex that provide no real bonus for selecting them (Fists i think is one, and hmm the melee dudes, forgot their name) they are decent bonuses for other armies, but they sort of flubbed the space marines as assault troops, there isn't really a unit to buff (cos they are so short on A). Whilst other armies are buying a melee weapon to buff 4 Attacks, Marines are generally doing it to buff 2.

          Theres -1 to hit on one chapter (easily the best tactic) reroll to hit and wound on another (second place but only just), then the ultramarines have an okay tactic + a trillion awesome special chars making them sorta okay too.

          The other dudes are like, k guess we get this thing then, we are not very good, damn it, still marines though!

          I think the imp guard book does a much better job of going, here are some bonuses you can have, now off you go, build the army how you want to, there's bonuses to make it good.

  9. Steel Legion is out. Infantry with Rapid Fire weapons double tap at 18" instead of half range. Vehicles ignore any AP of -1 and treat it as AP 0 instead. They get the Armored Fist stratagem (1CP) that allows a unit that disembarked from a transport to re-roll hit rolls of 1. Their special order "Mount up!" lets them shoot and turtle into a transport on the same turn if they are within 3". There's also a relic rundown. One of which lets you put a Company Commander and one Infantry unit in your opponent's deployment zone.

    • TrexPushups says:

      Steel legions looks like a fun play style for people who like mechanized infantry.

      Turn one
      1. drove up in tougher chimera

      Turn 2
      2. Hop out 18″ away with plasma vets that can’t explode and double tap
      3. Ram enemy with chimera to protect the vets(if necessary)

      Turn three
      4. fall back with chimera
      5. Shoot with your vet unit
      6. Get back in the chimera

      Turn 4
      8. Got to step 2.

  10. Jamazing1 says:

    Tallarn "Ambush" strategem looks fun. Ambush your enemy with 3 hidden baneblades. I think they'd fit within 7 inches if deployed sideways?

    • Dakkath says:

      CREEEEEEEED!

      • Jamazing1 says:

        I was thinking the same thing

        • Andy says:

          Is there any limit when you have to bring the unit it? Deep strike your Death strikes, let's face it, you didn't want them on the table til they were gonna fire anyway. Just hide them til T3 and you got a chance to insta fire them!

          Fluff wise, what is better than luring your foe into Death Strike range?

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