Chapter Approved: Points change Impact on Imperial Guard – Astra Militarum

The units and gear affected by Chapter Approved changes are spread across various books, so I have attempted to compile them into one easy to read table that shows the before and after impact of the new changes.

There are two pieces of good news for Guard players. The first is that you are now off the hook; enough units have been hit with tweaks and points increases that your wins are going to be harder to come by, and you are going to have to work harder to claim each victory. This isn’t sarcasm either; personally I find it liberating when army building is more challenging and opponents less likely to blame your codex for their losses.

The second is that despite the price increases, and there are a lot of them, the Astra Militarum remains a potent army. In my personal opinion it has dropped behind the current king-of-the-hill (Chaos), especially with all the stackable minus to hit being loaded in to the game, and might join the majority of armies in finding the new Tyrannids a real challenge, but it is still a good, strong book with lots of options.

But as of now, bunkering up with cheap forgeworld artillery and masses of conscripts ain’t one of em. 😀

A B C D
1
WAS NOW DIFFERENCE
2
Astropath 15 30 15
3
It’s a full doubling of the unit’s cost, but still a deserved increase. Note that the model would be 36pts with the Stave (and would have previously been 21 with it), but most people drop that useless piece of equipment. These cheap psykers were never good at Smite (they cast on 1D6), but will still make it in to lists as cheap sources of utility spells like Psychic barrier.
4
Conscripts 3 4 1
5
The final nail in the conscripts’ coffin. They now cost as much as vastly superior Infantry, have much lower LD, lower BS, lower WS, no sergeants, no special weapons, no heavy weapons, no wargear options and only pass orders half the time. Under 8th Edition rules, large units are uniquely vulnerable to Morale, and the commissar nerf already took the wind out of conscript’s sails.

Are we done here?

6
Manticore 125 135 10
7
143 with its hull Heavy Bolter. Still worth taking, but it’s worth considering other options.
8
Primaris Psyker 28 38 10
9
The old version was really 40 (mandatory force stave), and the new one is really 46 (the model costs 10 more, but the stave costs 4 less)
10
Ratlings 5 7 2
11
9pts with their rifle.
12
Taurox 40 50 10
13
Increased by 10, BUT note taking two autocannons dropped by 6. The real increase was only 4pts.
14
Taurox Prime 65 80 15
15
A 15pt increase, but the popular Gatling Cannon also increased by 2 so most players will feel it as a 17pt increase.
16
Wyverns 85 95 10
17
A 10pt increase in a tank that was always decent, but already struggling to justify inclusion against both cheaper units like Mortar Squads and more expensive ones like Punishers and Taurox Primes.
18
Weapons / Equipment
19
Autocannon 15 12 -3
20
A deserved 3pt drop. AC may make it back into some lists
21
Force Stave 12 8 -4
22
You’d never buy this on purpose, so dropping the cost makes sense now the Primaris is 10pts more.
23
Hotshot volley gun 6 7 1
24
Recently decreased in price, only to now be slightly increased.
25
BS4+ Melta 12 12 0
26
No change
27
BS3+ Melta 12 17 5
28
The recent changed to cost of BS3+ Plasma reignited the Melta v Plasma debate. This probably ends it: Plasma.
29
Powerfist 10 8 -2
30
You know what? I might buy one on a Guard model for the first time ever. Just for fun. In a list with Straken and/or a priest this is actually pretty efficient, assuming its T3 5+ wielder is alive to swing.
31
Taurox Gatling Cannon 18 20 2
32
A small increase for a great gun.
33
Tempestus Command Rod 0 5 5
34
This took me by surprise; it is wargear that requires a MT officer to drop their gun, and the benefit is just that they issue 2 orders like the other HQ officers which cost 10 (and now effectively, 15) points less.
At 45pts this model is getting perilously close to the cost of a 5 man squad hotshot squad (50pts).
Also @GW please let this poor guy also carry a pistol! Even blind astropath get one. He’s the only model that can go into combat unarmed, and it’s bad for the men’s morale.
35
Vanquisher Battle Cannon 25 20 -5
36
Not enough. Still a weapon you should avoid.
37
38
Forgeworld
39
Armageddon Medusa 103 115 12
40
41
Artemia Hellhound 100 73 -27
42
Hello flametank! The now-superior standard hellhound just changed to 2D6 1-damage shots, so this one with its D6 (roll 2 pick the highest) 2-damage shots needed a price drop to make it competitive. What makes it competitive on price is that the Artemia Inferno Cannon is 0 points, so the unit with a heavy flamer runs at just 90, compared to a Hellhound with Inferno and HF at 110.
43
Avenger Strike Fighter 125 150 25
44
45
Cyclops Demolition 40 60 20
46
These cute little tanks were deceptively deadly. They had it coming.
47
Dominius Siege Bombard 450 600 150
48
Earthshaker Battery 75 115 40
49
The unit deserved an increase, but as this puts it at a higher price point than the Basilisk that comes with the same weapon, plus a Heavy Bolter and the ability to move, there is a case to be made for this being an over reaction.
50
Earthshaker Carriage 75 105 30
51
Crew 4 4 0
52
As above, it needed a price increase but players will find this steep.
53
Heavy Quad Launcher 73 85 12
54
crew 4 4 0
55
Hydra Battery 90 75 -15
56
One of a short list of Guard units that have had a decrease in cost, it’s still not a must-include
57
Imperial Fortress Walls 400 800 400
58
Sure. Whatever. Why not. Its faction being ‘Unaligned’ might be one reason, I guess 🙂
59
Leman Russ Annihilator 132 122 -10
60
The Leman Russ Annihilator has dropped by 10pts from 132 to 122, before weapons.
Remember that as of the October 2017 FAQ, FW tanks operate the same as Codex varieties: ‘Grinding Advance: If this model remains stationary or
moves under half speed in its Movement phase (i.e. it moves a distance in inches less than half of its current Move characteristic) it can shoot its turret weapon twice in the following Shooting phase (the turret weapon must target the same unit both times). Furthermore, hit rolls for this model’s turret weapon do not suffer the penalty for moving and shooting a Heavy weapon.’
This is a heavy-duty vehicle destroyer, coming from the factory with a twin lascannon turret and a heavy bolter (now 170pts), but often upgraded to carry a hull lascannon and pair of plasmacannons (now 212pts). Plasmacannons have taken a real hit recently (fire at a Alaitoc Lightning-fast-reaction skimmer for example and you’re overheating on a 1, 2 or 3), but even without sponsons this is a serious tank killer.
61
Leman Russ Conqueror 110 122 12
62
The Conqueror with hull HB will now be 122+25+8=155, compared to the Codex Leman Russ with battle cannon and HB at 152. (Note in the previous FW FAQ it was briefly priced at 132 base rather than 110, so this price could be seen as a discount).
The main difference between them is the standard Leman Russ has a huge range advantage (72 vs 48″) on the main gun, while the Conqueror has a co-axial storm bolter that gives the main gun rerolls to hit provided they both target the same enemy within the 24″ range of the stormbolter.
The standard leman russ may be better on the 1st turn as player 1 (where you don’t want to roll forward and be within 24″) and the late turns (when the remaining targets are some distant back-field models), but since 40K is turning into a knife-fight, the Conqueror is better on the turns in between, and especially is better on Overwatch. If you’ve already got some very long range weapons in your list, it’s worth considering the conqueror.
63
Leman Russ Stygies Vanquisher 165 160 -5
64
The codex version is 155 with Vanquisher cannon and HB, while this one would cost 168 as delivered. It is better than the codex Vanquisher against close-range targets thanks to the co-axial stormbolter, and +1 to hit with the main gun if the model did not move at all, but still an unfortunate underperformer with 1 S8 -3 D6 (highest of 2) shot.
65
Lightning Strike Fighter 95 125 30
66
All the FLYERS in this list went up in price, but none were that outstanding before the changes.
67
Gorgon Heavy Transporter 300
68
Griffon Mortar Carrier 70 77 7
69
I own a Griffon but rarely took it; I’d anticipated a price drop rather than increase. It’s not a bad unit, but it is outclassed by units above and below it.
70
Manticore Battery 80 110 30
71
A fair nerf.
72
Medusa Carriage battery 80 100 20
73
Crew 4 4 0
74
A fair nerf.
75
Primaris Redoubt 300 700 400
76
Sure… OK. 700pts. Why not. Moving on.
77
Rapier Laser Destroyer 70 80 10
78
crew 4 4 0
79
80
Salamander Command Vehicle 75 110 35
81
A huge increase for a poorly-armed light tank (now 135 with its mandatory HB HF). Its job is to add 1 to the BS of one unit per turn, so it was taken with superheavies or expensive russes, and helped compensate against the -1 or better to hit armies. I know some people will still take it, but it’s very hard to justify at this cost. You can buy a real tank for this sort of price.
82
Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter 170 160 -10
83
The Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter fires a Heavy Laser Destroyer Array which is basically a D3 lascannon with 60″ range (heavy D3, S9 AP-3 D6) and that rolls 2 dice and picks the highest for damage vs Vehicles
84
Stygies Thunderer Tank 170 160 -10
85
The Thunderer is reputed to be a budget demolisher because it can only take that one main weapon; the demolisher cannon. However, even after this discount it will still be a 160+40=200 point tank.
86
Tarantula Battery 10 20 10
87
Unlike SM tarantulas, the Guard ones come from Heavy Support and are thus less useful at filling out a brigade. With their price before guns doubled and still lacking the ability to control their targeting, they aren’t a very compelling choice.
88
Thunderbolt Fighter 100 125 25
89
0
90
Defence Searchlight 0 20 20
91
The defence searchlight was already nerfed to only affect infantry. There are still fringe cases where this is worth taking (eg Militarum Tempestus 10 man squad with 4 plasma) but it’s generally simply better to buy more men.
92
Hellstrike Missile 20 30 10
93
Twin Assault Cannon 35 44 9
94
DEATH KORPS
95
Command Squad 7 7 0
96
Combat Engineers 7 7 0
97
Grenadier Storm Squad 8 8 0
98
Leman Russ Mars Alpha 132 122 -10
99
Something worth noting about the Mars Alpha tanks is that they get +1 to saves vs Strength 4 or less. That may not come up very often vs shooting, but it can be handy vs massed close combat attacks. This would be the tank to drive into combat with Ork Boyz and Nid swarms -it’s a shame it’s locked to Death Korps as a regiment.
100
Storm Armour and Mine Plough 0 10 10
101
Twin heavy Stubber 0 8 8
102
Previously unavailable, now there are rules to match the model.
103
Vanquisher Battle Cannon 25 20 -5
104
ELYSIAN
105
Command Squad 7 7 0
106
Veteran Squad 7 7 0

Practical Example of impact

I will use my own list from last weekend’s Western Australian Masters event as an example.

Note that I don’t use forgeworld very often (and didn’t at all at this event), so am spared some of the worst impact.

PRICE INCREASES IN MY LIST’S UNITS

60 Conscripts +60 points
1 Primaris Psyker +6 points (after stave is factored in)
Astropaths +45 points
Manticores +30 points
Celestine +50 points
4 Meltaguns +20 points
=211 points

PRICE DECREASES IN MY LIST’S UNITS

1 Autocannon -3 points
=3 points

Nice! I made 3 points back lol.

So in this real-world example, I would need to drop 208 points from the list I took in order to make it legal. That is a lot of hardware, and it came hot on the heels of other changes like the nerfing of conscripts, obsolescence of Commissars (seriously, take an inquisitor if you want a LD bubble and get a free cast/deny), plasma gun and mortar increases etc.

That’s quite a chunk of an army by anyone’s reckoning.

But as mentioned in the opening paragraphs, I would hope that it should be enough to shut down complaints about Guard as a codex and get people back to focusing on beating their opponent.

– Matt

 

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69 Responses to “Chapter Approved: Points change Impact on Imperial Guard – Astra Militarum”

  1. Jason F says:

    "everything costs more or is worse, and that's a good thing"
    hhahaha man I love the way you think.

    I get it though, except for I do not for a moment understand how Guilleman got away with 25pts and magnis and mortarion are some how not even touched. I guess it's nice to be a primarch.

    • Prometheus says:

      Can't speak to mortarion, but Magnus was easy to kill. Hear he doesn't do so well in tournaments, either.

      • abusepuppy says:

        Yeah, he's just terrible. Certainly didn't take Best General at Warzone Atlanta and make a top 10 appearance at most major tournaments so far.

        Bizarro World, ladies and gentlemen. It's a hard place to live, but it's fun to visit.

        • Prometheus says:

          I said Magnus, you're thinking of Mortarion.

          Why are you like this, Puppy?

          • Ish says:

            The Best General winner at Warzone Atlanta included _both_ Mortarian and Magnus in his army.

            http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/11/goatboys-40k-warzone-atlantas-winning-lists.html

            • Prometheus says:

              I also didn't say that Magnus was bad, just that I didn't have any trouble killing him. I.e. probably not broken.

              Things can be useful without being broken.

              • abusepuppy says:

                You also said that he "didn't do so well at tournaments." I provided an example of him in a list that came in first place. You see no contradiction there?

                • Prometheus says:

                  No, because I don't think using him and Mortarion together (so a bit of a monster overwhelm situation) is evidence of him "doing well at tournaments".

                  • Kirby says:

                    Armies with Magnus placed well before Morty came along. From memory, 3rd and 4th at the largest ITC Australian event involved Magnus back in June. And I am sure Magnus was there at pre-Morty events (to be confirmed).

                  • Matt-Shadowlord says:

                    Down here we pretty much only ever see them as a tag team. They pair up well and it does seem to overwhelm quite a lot of their opponents.
                    I don't have a big beef with them personally, but that '3++ reroll 1s' thing can be a source of frustration.

                  • abusepuppy says:

                    "I never eat beans."
                    "You are literally eating beans with a fork as you speak to me."
                    "Yeah, well, this is beans and rice, so it doesn't count."

                    • Prometheus says:

                      Yes…..but that actually makes sense. I don't mushrooms, but I like beef stroganoff. Lots of things are like that.

                      Anyway, I've faced Magnus twice now, was easy to kill, but yes I'm a GK player.

                • Alastores says:

                  Logically – it cannot be inferred that X is good because X+Y is amazing

                  • Ish says:

                    However, that was not Prometheus’s original assertion. Prometheus said that “[Magnus] doesn’t do so well in tournaments, either.” Puppy falsified that claim by noting his prion the Best General winner’s list at Warzone Atlanta (which I provided a link to) and other tournaments. Prometheus then tried to backpedal…

                    Alice: “X is never present in Y.”
                    Bob: “Y contains X in these instances: 1, 2, 3.”
                    Alice: “No, (X+Z) is different than X.”
                    Bob: (facepalm)

      • Andy says:

        As GK they are pathetically easy to kill, Its why running a detachment of GK is so appealing in the current meta. Should be noted like most things, they work better together, devoting effort to kill one leaves the other free, and they are very much capable of winning games on their own.

        Magnus is the harder of the two as GK, his main defence(well offence too) is his mobility, which GK have endless answers for, and his 3++ with a reroll on 1's (lol) which is easily ignored by 3 dmg smites. It can be hard to kill him before he gets value (if he goes first you might well lose a tank or two before you shut him down).

        Morty is tougher, but he isn't fast enough to do any damage before he dies, it ends up with deathguard screening him so you can't tp in within 9" so he can get value charging them and getting at least one set of attacks before he is murdered.

        Again a case of armies not updating as fast as the rules allow as people take time to receive and paint models, the other issue they sort of have is there isn't (wasn't) a natural 3rd super heavy for them, knight/Lord of skulls/spartan being the main contenders, but apparently thats banned now.

    • NinetyNineNo says:

      Judging by the fluff and crunch, I swear someone at GW HW owns a set of Primarch body pillows. The amount of love they get at the expense of everything else is ridiculous.

  2. Kadeton says:

    It's worth noting that when you dropped the staff from the Astropaths before, they were only 15 points – they literally doubled in price. It makes them a bad prospect for Smite spam (they were on par with Primaris Psykers before, barring stuff like Tyranids) but fine for other powers, which I assume was the intent.

    I'm actually really pleased with the changes, because everything in the army I have stayed the same or came down in price, while everyone else's went up (because they were using all the stuff that was actually good). Huzzah! The strong message I'm getting from the New GW is "Play what you like the look of, because even if it's crap now it might be great next week!" It's like they're deliberately trying to discourage meta-building and netlisting by just constantly churning the efficient choices.

  3. Andy says:

    First and foremost many thanks for compiling the list!

    I agree with most of the stuff, i am hugely surprised we saw a price adjustment to psyker spam rather than a rules change, i would have bet money they would add a stacking effect to smite.

    The conscript nerf is bizarre, i mean wow, take an already garbage unit and then make it even worse, this could almost be considered a nerf to poxwalkers~

    Unsuprisingly my primaris redoubt army was nerfed, or was it? Since its referred in various places as Primus Redoubt and Primaris Redoubt who knows!!! I jest of course, to explain the nerf, this thing was an absolute beast. The original psyker version of the army has seen an 1100pt price increase~ yikes! Though i admit more recently i was running it as a Poxwalker army (which is yet to be beaten and probably never will be now). The only reason it didn't dominate the tournament scene was it was banned, well it was also bloody hard to transport.

    That said, the only thing i had that kept the -2 to hit Sokar in check was the redoubt, quite clearly this is a ruse from GW to make me buy an Atraeus (you fail GW i already ordered it HAH!…damn.)

    Moving on to what I would term "sensible" armies, Leman russes seem to be a huge winner still, Pask especially saw no increase in price (unless you consider the small bump in the cost of his 2 astropaths) and he has as much firepower as a super heavy tank. Unless i am missing something, all of the FW russes still don't have the updated Grinding Advance rules from the codex, which makes them pretty much garbage, but in terms of Tanks, the humble Russ is probably second only to the wave serpent still (curse their -2 to hit).

    The taurox's see the nerfs they should have got in the codex, will be interesting if people still favour them over aggressors as the go to anti infantry option (i tend to not like punishers due to their poor performance vs small units) earthshaker batteries are over nerfed, sure they are tougher than basilisks, but err the basilisk doesnt auto die in melee.

    Most importantly, no indication that the damocles command rhino has been nerfed, so we will still get to roll a dice, yay!

  4. AntonErpel says:

    What GW didn’t catch is that with tue points reduction to the autocannon the exterminator autocannon is now one point more than two autocannons while doing the same. It hurts me still that the exterminator and the eradicator remain forgotten by GW

    • Alexis West says:

      Seriously. I love my Exterminators, but I can't justify putting them on the table right now.

      • abusepuppy says:

        It's bizarre that every other twin-linked weapon in the game doubled in number of shots and they just… didn't.

        • Alexis West says:

          Monstrous Devourers didn't in the Index, but they got fixed in the Tyranid Codex at least. No such love for the Exterminators so far, tho.

        • Kadeton says:

          I mean… the exterminator is literally just a twin autocannon, right? They already have double the shots of an autocannon, exactly as you'd expect for a twin-linked version. (Not to mention they tend to double that again for being a Russ turret weapon.)

          Their profile is basically what it should be, it's just that they're terribly priced. If they were the 'cheap' turret option (say 4 pts or so) they might see more play.

          • No One says:

            It's actually a quad autocannon. i.e. It was a 4 shot TL autocannon in 7th. Now it's…a 4 shot autocannon.

            It 100% should be 8 shots total.

            • Kadeton says:

              Oh, fair enough if it's actually a quad autocannon. The one I have only has two autocannon barrels, and I assumed it was the official one, but I did buy my army pre-assembled.

              • No One says:

                My apologies, it does seem to just be the 2 autocannon barrels, could've sworn it was 4…

                I do still think it should've been 8 shots, especially based on previous profile: a price drop wouldn't cut it, it needs something to differentiate.

                • Kadeton says:

                  Obviously I wouldn't complain if it went up to 8 shots, but I think it's worth comparing that weapon (which honestly, under almost all circumstances is going to be a 16-shot autocannon) to equivalent options. If it stayed at current price, a Leman Russ with that much firepower would be what, about 150 points? The same amount of firepower from Heavy Weapon Teams would be closer to 170. I'd say if it went to Heavy 8, we'd expect to see at least a 10-point price hike, if not more.

                  Would be pretty awesome, though.

                  • No One says:

                    True. I'm just comparing it between russes: from my recollection of when Neil did the spreadsheets back with the Index, autocannon was only very marginally better against 1 or 2 things if that, and worse against basically everything than the battle cannon. (Would be better against T3 invuls at worst, but otherwise? Doubt it)/

                    Nothing has changed relatively between them, so…yeah. That's just an issue with giving the russ chassis the double tap – the autocannon profile being a widely available option just makes comparisons to the rest of the codex more glaring.

                    Pricing of it would need to be tweaked, yes, since it would be better. But autocannon's dropped in price because they just aren't that great when you could get lascannons or 2D6 S10 or S8 (manticore/BC russ) instead: equivalent HWT would be 144 pts.

  5. Kdash says:

    Just one note about the Conquror Russ – it dropped 10 points, but you have it listed as +12 points. Before CA it was 132 rather than 110 due to the previous FW FAQ.

    • Matt-Shadowlord says:

      Thanks, I have added a note to its entry. I am using the original IA book for comparison by default; it's complicated enough already 😀

  6. Davidgr33n3 says:

    I hate that Missile Launchers didn’t get a slight decrease, vs Lascannons it just doesn’t compare….

    Autocannons got a little more attractive at 12 pp, I run Tallarn Scout Sentinels, I’ll probably switch from Lascannons to Autocannons.

    • Matt-Shadowlord says:

      Yes I agree. A lot of people think the ML is worth it for the versatility of dual fire modes, and often have an anecdote about fighting green tide orks to back it up.
      Really, in a list with so much small arm fire, you're better off with Lascannons.

  7. happy_inquisitor says:

    Nice to see a reasonable response to the changes. I think any competitive player knows that if they take lots of the most points-efficient things in the game then any points adjustments to the game are likely to see their list get more expensive. I think AM will remain in the top tier for tournament play unless something new comes along to upset them, the exact lists in use may just need to be adjusted.

    At least with Conscripts the models are totally usable as infantry squads so nobody is going to have to leave models gathering dust on the shelf.

  8. vipoid says:

    The Astropath one is a lie.

    It was 15pts before (not 21 – that was only with the useless Stave that no one ever used). So it's literally doubled in price – which was in no way deserved.

    What's more, it's now 30ots *without* the Stave. So, no, you can't save 6pts by dropping the save. You can only add 6pts to his already stupidly inflated cost.

    • NinetyNineNo says:

      You don’t think 15pts for a psyker with a gimped Smite but full access to regular powers and DtW (plus a unique bonus debuff) was too little?

      • vipoid says:

        15 was probably too little, yes. However, that doesn't mean I think they need to literally double in cost.

        I think 20-25pts would have been more reasonable.

  9. Tomguycot says:

    I don’t know who imperial Guard pissed off but good grief. Nothing but cascading nerfs since the book came out.

    • AngryPanda says:

      They aren't Space Marines. And they so badly want to sell Space Marines.

    • abusepuppy says:

      It might be the fact that IG lists and IG-heavy Imperial Soup lists have been dominating the top tables since the edition began.

      • Tomguycot says:

        Adjustments were certainly needed but I think we’ve gone well beyond that now.

        • abusepuppy says:

          *shrug* We'll see. I still expect IG-heavy lists to continue doing well, but that may depend on other factors as well.

          • Sanchezsam2 says:

            Still think the conscript nerf was well overboard at this point. In all honesty they should still be 3ppm and commissars can lose the kill a model and instead be changed to “you may reroll a failed morale roll for units within 6in”. And conscripts would be fine and not spammed. The commissar is just a detriment in most cases and conscripts make absolutely no sense especially when you consider the combine squad strategem allows you to make better 20 man conscript squads out of basic infantry.

            • No One says:

              The fact that they nerfed conscripts _again_ is baffling, yeah. It's…also just a really a weird nerf (why do they cost the same as guardsmen??).

              • Alastores says:

                I'm wondering if the Chapter Approved team and the FAQ team are different people, who both thought they needed to nerf conscripts, and it just didn't come up in any meetings that they'd both done it in different ways.

    • Andy says:

      I am a little torn on this, i understand they are trying, and making changes, but i don't understand that they are so blind to the inherent flaws of their system, and until they rectify the inherent flaws there is no blance.

      It takes just one simple line to be added to the rules, to make various units drop from god tier to balanced, and stop entire armies, like imp guard, being unplayable.

      "The total modifiers affecting any dice roll cannot be greater than +1 or -1".

      The exponential benefit of adding -1 to hit modifiers together is utterly impossible to cost, by all means make armies different, but have some checks and balances, if you really feel that unit X should have -2 then let it specifically break the rules.

      • abusepuppy says:

        I mean, at that point you get into a lot of weird situations that raise the question of why you have bonuses/penalties to hit at all.

        I don't completely disagree with you- I think that modifiers to hit are a bit problematic and annoying and I'd rather them not be part of the game. However, they _are_ part of the game, so capping them out- and more importantly capping them at a _very_ low value kinda defeats the entire point of the mechanic.

        • Andy says:

          I just find it a bit much is all, before the codex if I fly my shadow spectres across the map, they are focussed down (as they rightly should be they are killing machines) it takes me Word of Phoenix to even get them in range to flame on the first turn and the hemlock flying cover above them only gives them a total of -2 to be hit.

          Now, they sit in deep strike so there is no counter before the strike, they land, if quicken hits then they just fly into the midst of the army, and murder things left right and centre, then either charge some tanks to lock them in combat, or sit there going come at me bro, we got flamers, if they have suitable cover.

          All in all I am finding it is too much disruption from 400pts of units, it is too difficult to handle effectively, its one of those "they break just a few too many rules". Screens are unreliable, because of the 12" fly after deep strike, soaking the damage just doesn't happen, they average around 40 infantry kills per turn and as long as they are in cover, they are incredibly hard to charge.

          Is it now mandatory to have a no over watch vs me hero in every army or a vehicle with fly that can take 35 flamer shots to the face or a battery of flamers and smites?

          It does as you say make army building more interesting, you have to work in counters to everything, but I feel this really is a unit that needs the rule change so there is some viable counter play other than running enough flamers, that you can't have your flamers focussed down.

  10. Swift Scythe says:

    LOL i know some friends proxy like a bunch of toy artillery guns call them forgeworld Earthshaker Batteries that are stationary and only 75 points now theyre fourty points more expensive. This is why i have actual GW Basilisks and now its my turn to laugh when they say i wasted money on real GW products.

    • ApplePI says:

      I have the actual FW batteries. Its so painful to see them gathering dust in 8th when I used them all the time in 7th. Oh well, they can remain on display with their Trojans.

  11. akorndr2 says:

    Bye bye astropaths was nice knowing you

    • Andy says:

      AStropaths are still the cheapest way to get the two super awesome buffs for your tank/ogryn.

      As long as 2++ Ogryn are possible, astropaths are going nowhere.

  12. Broxus says:

    About time the Atropaths had a price bump. At 15 points they were just stupid. They should be around 50pts since when you compare them to other casters they just are way to cheap. They saw they raised Malific Lords 80pts each (now that is a crazy nerf). I also was hoping to see if they had raised the cost on Basilisks and Hellhound inferno cannons, and baneblade variants. All three are just way underpriced atm since they buffed them and allow traits to work on them.

  13. Prometheus says:

    Cry on my shoulder and I will tell you the tale of the zero fucks I give.

    Your army, which has been dominant post several nerfs, got a 10% cost increase. OK.

    • Andy says:

      Its weird but i still feel the biggest nerf to Guard was Altaioc, I tried running tank commanders over artillery, which made games closer but not close enough. Any ideas how to deal with Crimson Hunters?

      • abusepuppy says:

        Don't worry about Crimson Hunters, worry about Hemlocks, Banshees, Reapers, Rangers, and Hawks.

        • PrimarsPete says:

          It’s true. Bs4 armies are struggling with the negs to hit. The nerf to conscripts this doesn’t mention is like in a ga,e I played this weekend by conscripts literally couldn’t see the enemy, the only ones in range were -2 to hit canceled guardians and 1 unit of shadowspectres. At least infantry would have hit them on 6s
          Unless they used fast reflexes I guess lol.

        • Andy says:

          Problem is, if you run Banshees and Hemlocks in an Altaioc army you give a huge free target to your opponent, as soon as you present any target that isn't -2 to hit, the strategy falls apart fast.

          The hunters are all but impossible for guard to destroy, they don't get in smite range, they kill tranpsorts and tanks for fun from 36" away. I tried running a hemlock, but it just burns through too many cp's to save it.

  14. Aaron Aleong says:

    Great article Matt!!

  15. Tomguycot says:

    Time will certainly tell but I think these changes hurt a lot more than people think. This effectively means that Guard lose their bubble wrap since conscripts are comically bad. Ten man units of Infantry are ok but trivial to remove since you only ever have to kill 10. This makes losing the ability to naturally blob squad your infantry squads even more painful.

    As it stands I think this leaves Chaos as undisputed tier 1. Sure they lost Malefic Lords but the faction is still really deep and otherwise pretty well unchanged. Alpha Legion in particular is really strong still (especially against Imperial Guard who get wrecked by – 1 to hit).

    • Tomguycot says:

      Forgot to add that the change to Ratlings hurts a lot also. They were such a good screen before but 9 each is getting kind of high for a throwaway unit.

      • ryan says:

        i agree. its not the end of the world but a change like that is enough for me to consider only running a brigade and taking 3 sentinals with heavy flamers instead to advance deploy instead of filling elite slots in another force organization chart with ratlings who for me have never done a thing except act as a screen.

      • Tomguycot says:

        Yeah the army as a whole used to be a lot of snowballing small efficiencies and I feel like now it is a lot of small inefficiencies for guys who hit on 4s and generally can’t fight their way out of a paper bag and are about as durable as said bag.

        There are certainly some good things still like Leman Russes, Basilisks, Manticores are still fine and I still am interested in Hellhounds and Tallarn Devil dogs however the whole infantry half of the book is just a collective ewwwww for me as opposed previously their main strength.

        Right now I feel like chaos most definitely holds the crown for best screens and board control. I’d much rather have 40 alpha Legion cultists than 40 infantry or lol conscripts.

  16. Hotsuace says:

    Massive over reaction to earthshakers IMO, other artiller are fine with a few quality of live points, these nerf them to near uselessness. its a bummer becuase GW DOESNT STOCK BASILISKS ANYMORE
    I might only keep them because they dont give up big game hunter in ITC mission.

  17. Good job putting it all together. Looking forward to seeing how you adjust lists and maybe move away from conscripts.

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