Chapter Approved Points Leak

Points pictures are here! Let’s take a quick look, impacts at bottom of post.

So the points rumors floating around seem to be accurate. So major changes… (updating as I go; updated with clearer pictures):

  • Stormraven up 20 points;
  • Exorcist down 25 points;
  • Celestine up 50 points but her babies are down 25 points each (so whole unit is the same price);
  • Repressors are base 91 points (so up 20 points);
  • AdMech have some points decreases – Breachers / Destroyers down 5, Priests down 1, Dominus down 10, Enginseer down 5, Infiltrators down 2, Rangers down 1 and Vanguard down 1;
  • Cawl went down 10 points (despite Warhammer Community saying he went up…);
  • Conscripts are up 1 point – I think that ends that yes?;
  • Manticore is up 10 points;
  • Primaris Psykers are up 10 points (still dirt cheap);
  • Astropath up 15;
  • Taurox up 10 points and Taurox Prime up 15 along with Hot Shot Volley Guns increasing by 1 point and the Taurox Gatling Cannon going up 2 points;
  • Meltagun prices went up 5 points on 3+ to hit models for AM;
  • Command Rod now costs 5 points;
  • Wyverns up 10 points;
  • Ratlings up two points each;
  • Power Fist down 2 points to 8;
  • Vanquisher Cannon down 5 points;
  • Autocannons down 3 points! (for AM);
  • Twin Psycannon went up 22 points!?!?!?;
  • Malefic Lords as we know went up to 80 points;
  • Y’vahra thankfully seems to have been left alone;
  • Malanthrope up to 140 points *puts on shelf*;
  • Barbed Hierodule went up 40 points;
  • Supremacy Armour doubled to 1500 points…;
  • Gauss Pylon went up 75 points;
  • Night Shroud went down 50 points;
  • Shadow Spectres were removed from the plane of playability with their Rifles / Blasters going up by 10 points (okay they still are not bad but they are not criminally cheap now);


Eldar Chapter Approved Changes

Hi, this Matt-Shadowlord adding a section about the changes to Eldar.


  • Phoenix up from 157 to 183 (I just got my Phoenix model. JUST got it!)
  • Vampire hunter up from 925 to waaaaaaaoh 1500
  • Warp Hunter up from 240 to 285
  • Scorpion up from 660 to 700
  • Revenant 1200 to 2000!!


  • Wasp drops from 110 to 65. Welcome back to play, little guy!
  • Wraithseer drops from 150 to 125


Most of these are changes to bring FW inline with the Codex.

  • Dcannon down from 50 to 45 (as in the Codex)
  • Prism Rifle up from 15 to 25 – this means Shadowspectres go from 23 to 33pts. (I just got my 10 Spectre models. Same package as the Phoenix!)
  • Prism Blaster up from 20 to 30 – The Shadowspectre exarch goes from 28 to 38 if taking this weapon. (And in the same box, 2 Exarchs with the blasters. Typical, lol).
  • Scatter laser 10 (as in the Codex)
  • Shuriken Cannon 10 (as in the Codex)
  • Sonic Lance up from 0 to 60
  • Starcannon 15 (as in the Codex)
  • Twin Shuriken Cat 5 (as in the Codex)
  • Twin Shuriken Cannon 17 (as in the Codex)
  • Twin Starcannon 28 (as in the Codex)

(Corsairs are the Forgeworld Eldar faction; basically space pirate elves)

  • Corsair Cloud Dancers – down from 25 to 20
  • Corsair Cloud Dancers Felarch – down from 30 to 25
  • Corsair Reaver – down from 9 to 7
  • Corsair Reaver Felarch – down from 14 to 12
  • Corsair Skyreaver – Down from 12 to 10
  • Corsair Skyreaver Felarch – down from 17 to 12

Those are some across the board improvements to Corsair costs. I like the models and would order some, but am concerned for the sake of Corsair players that the moment my package arrives from FW the prices will be bumped up 😀

Impact on Eldar

Eldar saw quite a few changes despite being a brand new codex, but the majority are to bring FW units into line with the new Codex pricing. Eldar Superheavies however have really had the nerfbat swung at them hard -it’s possible that this is partially balanced by access to new craftworld bonuses, but really it is likely to make most of them appear in games less frequently.

The Eldar Corsairs are now worth a second look. Their unique selling point is a special rule called Reckless Abandon; if they cause a casualty in overwatch they can immediately make a 3″ move in any direction. With more ways to get off turn 1 charges in the game almost every week, this can be a very valuable option to have. In an ideal world, you’re looking at a way to make those charges less likely to hit.

Shadowspectres clearly took a hammering. As someone who just got the models that’s a bit of a pain, but I also think they benefit too much from stackable bonuses like Alaitoc, Conceal and Lighting Reflexes (-4 to hit trollolllooooo), and so were due a price increase.



Okay so some quick thoughts here.

Forge World largely got shafted – not surprising. I have not really looked into the DKoK / Elysian points yet as I am not familiar with them but it looks like their points costs were adjusted to the AM codex which is probably a net gain. Most AM regularly-used units got a points bump though – Psykers, Manticores / Wyverns, Conscripts and Taurox’s all went up. I do not think this will mean anything for Psykers or the artillery but Conscripts are effectively dead it feels. Same cost as normal Infantry, orders fail 50% of the time, worse BS / WS, Ld4 and the only advantage (which is important) is they come in bigger units. Use of multiple Infantry Squad layers may replace this.
Matt has done a full run through the Guard changes here.

Malanthrope was undercosted before and may be slightly overcosted now, I would have said 120/130 would be a good spot but will see. Some of the super-heavies doubling in price is laughable – none of them were destroying the competitive landscape even when they were being used. Particularly when we consider Girlyman, Magnus and Morty exist. Celestine at 200 feels a tad overpriced but she’s still a great model and now I feel like taking her babysitters given they are 25 points. Repressors going up 20 points feels right, they are a great transport and the Exoricst going down to 135 makes me ponder it… I hate random shots AND random damage but it is probably more efficient than a Manticore now.

Shadow Spectres may get shelved – from 23 to 33 points is a pretty big jump and makes them far less efficient. Still highly durable for T3 models with the minus to hit but that was just enough to push them away. 28-30 points would have again, been a decent sweet spot. Couple point swings in either direction can have huge impacts on efficiency.

The most amusing thing for me though is twin psycannons going to 50 points. Something that was already inefficient got nearly doubled in cost (and the Razorback chassis also got more expensive).

Anything else anyone noticed or has gone through that i have not (i.e. Chaos, DKoK / Elysians, etc.)?

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141 responses to Chapter Approved Points Leak


Decrease their unit size!
Make them only pass orders on 4+!
Nerf the Commissar to the point of obsolescence!
Increase points cost to match far superior infantry!

Yeah I think should be enough nails in the coffin, but who knows maybe they'll make them take a perils per casualty in the next update 😀


More seriously, the Chapter Approved publication is very good.

There *should* be something for almost everyone to complain about in there. For example, the cost of the army I took to a recent tournament would have gone up by almost 200 points, with nothing gained for the premium pricing. (If your own army went up in cost, just interpret it as meaning you choose efficient units and try take it as a compliment to your list building skills 😀 )

The reasons I think it is good despite the things we'll all nitpick and complain about are

1) We've NEVER seen GW so actively involved in their own game and rules. NEVER. This is new, and for every misstep in the changes above there are probably 5 improvements.
2) They changed Forgeworld unit costs too. FORGEWORLD! They actually changed FW costs at the same time. Seriously, no kidding, see for yourself. Read the Chapter Approved book outside while checking the sky for flying pigs! It's a big deal.

So on the whole I see this as very good for the game, and look forward to their future tweaks and changes. Maybe even the existence of rolling changes will be enough to discourage people from over-investing in tomorrow’s nerfmagnet (yes I am looking at you, 36x biovore list)

This is correct on so many levels, a lot of these points changes feel about right. There are some overcorrections and some really stupid ones (twin psycannons will be a meme soon) but they are clearly looking at what is happening at tournaments and tweaking it. Hopefully when they realise they have overtweaked (such as Conscripts) they will correct back and find that sweet spot.

Yes, it is great that they finally take responsibility for FW as well. I mean it is a 100% daughter.
BUT then they go ahead and screw this for Eldar so completely I'm at a loss for the words to describe it.
They did one thing correct, they increased the pints for Specters, but they did a FW on it and overdid it massively. AND then they screwed some more and increased the points for units which needed a significant reduction! Warp Hunter, Titans, Lynx (to some extend) honestly?
Is this a preparation for a FW new Index release? I mean nobody can make a mistake of that magnitude and claim ignorance?

I think they are trying to push all FW models out of the competitive meta. Most FW nerfs for codex armies took previously great option below the codex unit they were out-performing.

Whether they did it for balancing, to appease people with no access to FW or because there is a greater margin on plastic than on resin, I don't know.

The lack of Dark Angels and Blood Angels sounds to me like confirming those two codecies are coming very very soon.

I don’t think they would have been in CA if they were that soon. I believe February release will see Ynnari since they are not in there.

Both only got updates for forge world units, nothing for units, that would be in a codex. And ynnari just got reboxed, the index rules were added to the box. Why would they do that, if Ynnari would get a codex soon?

This was across the board. Ynnari is the only omission but I would be really surprised if they get their own codex. We know DA / BA / CD are coming next and we do not see them in CA at all but their release schedule has basically been 2 books per month with no indication they are slowing that down.

So they've brought chainfists down to 14 points from 22? That is a good move, as it was about 8 points overcosted (with power fists being 12). Now I need to make a Cataphractii squad with 5 chainfists.

Yeah, I was happy to see that. It seemed really odd to me that PowerFists and Thunder Hammers got that drop in the Codexes, but ChainFists didn't, despite being in more or less the same "weight class."


No changes to Tau points it seems and FW points were there. Hammerheads down to normal level, Drones to 7 pts and everything else jacked up.

The Ork points adjustments aren't nearly enough to break them out of their mono-build doldrums, but I'll take whatever they can get. Power klaws are 13 points each now? Fuck it, in their current state that alone is cause for dancing in the streets!

Yeah I still can't see myself running the buggies, etc they seem to have tried to help. The whole thing boils down to cheaper powerklaws. I'm a little surprised they left the Stompa at its current cost. Just not worth it.

Yeah, the Stompa really needs to come down, as does the Battlewagon. It's like they don't understand how people decide what to put in their armies.

Ten Tankbustaz in a Trukk: 252 points.
Five Trakks with rokkit racks: 305 points.

Yeah, Trakks and Buggies are not going to happen – and that's before you factor in the Tankbustaz getting the Tank Hunters rule, access to Bomb Squigs, and no reduction in their firepower until the Trukk is dead. Even with their Outflank stuff, they need to come down another 8-10 points each before they'll start being worthwhile. But at least they're getting closer!

Wait. whut… they do still have to pay full (index) points for their wargear.
Am I missing something ?

The Killtank was a BS4+ shooting platform seen in a decent number of Ork armies. I wouldn't call it great, but it was surprisingly shooty for its cost and the general trend here is to apply a huge nerf to anything FW that is even vaguely popular.

I don’t even know why I own an Astra Militarum Codex. Essentially the whole book is different now.

And I’m sorry but the pendulum has swung the other direction now because this is WAY too much half baked change. It just feels like they’re throwing darts at a board. Like why are Malefic Lords 80 and Primaris Psykers are 46? Why do conscripts cost 4 points despite being completely inferior to Imperial Guard infantry. Why does any of the forge world stuff cost what it costs?

I really thought 8th had a lot of potential after sitting out the game since 5th but I think I’m back to spending my hobby time elsewhere.

Psykers still have to pay for their Force Staff, so their cost is secretly 58pts. I would say they are definitely superior to the Malefic Lord overall, but the Lord does at least have some things in their favor (T4, 4++, Hulks out on perils.)

Tomguycot was probably factoring in the Force Stave already:
Primaris Psyker was28 plus a 12 point stave = 40
Primaris Psyker is now 38 plus an 8 point stave = 46

Thanks to the way prices are scattered around it's always a bit more effort work out real prices. And that's before you get to Forge World who don't even sort their stuff alphabetically!

I think this is a viable concern relating to your first line. While the majority of the army is the same, the Conscripts can basically be ignored from the codex, you will need to scratch out point values, etc.

It's a double edged sword. On one hand, we do not have years of a game defined by an overpowered unit(s) that does not get addressed. On the other hand, we are buying products that immediately need patches (ala computer technology). Computer /software patches are free and easy to download. Updating armies or buying new books is not. I will be curious to see how GW manages this but I would much prefer having stupid shit fixed ASAP.

Good rule of thumb, if it seems too good – do not go out and buy extra stuff for it. If you already have it or want it regardless, go for it.

They *are* throwing darts at a board. That's the problem. Their changes are often nonsensical with neither rhyme nor reason, and GW being GW it's not like they will do a design commentary explaining their reasoning like, for instance, Privateer Press does when they change something, or like how video game designers do. As far as we know, these changes are just random "Hey let's drop this unit by 5 points" musings over tea.

The Guilliman nerf is so inconsequential it almost feels like they’re taking the piss. Combined with Magnus staying untouched it gives the feeling that GW just really likes their Primarchs (either because half of Black Library spends most of its time wanking them or because they fly off the shelves aplarently). Why is it that some OP units get a lovetap and others get piledrived off a bridge? And did Cawl go DOWN in points?

I believe Cawl went up a small amount overall.

Guilliman's point increase feels a bit small, but combined with the changes to how detachments are built it will likely mean you see a lot less of him- ditto with Magnus and Mortarion, and you won't be able to stick them in detachments with each other or with Knights anymore.

Detachments have to be drawn entirely from a single codex. No more Soup detachments, although Soup armies (using detachments from several codices) are still legal.

So if you wanted to bring, say, an Assassin from Index 2 (the Culexus has been a popular choice in many lists), how would you do it?

Lose out on 1 CP to take an auxiliary support detachment to take that assassin?

Seems like it would cut down the soup to ingredients you *really* want to have – if AP is correct in this change happening.

I'm not entirely certain how that will interact with some of the "small" factions. Presumably there will be some kind of allowances in order for people to be able to field SoB, Assassins, Custodes, etc, but I haven't seen the book in person yet so I don't know 100% for certain.

Several different playtesters I know had mentioned it in confidence. I don't have a screencap or other explicit confirmation, but I don't know of any good reason why they would each give me the same plausible lie.

Welp, nevermind, call me an idiot. Just talked to a (playtest) guy who has a full copy now, and they dropped both the "3x smite per turn" and "detachments from a single faction" rules that were in the original version. Woo, Soup's reign shall not end yet.

Hmmm, this is troubling, it means Morty + Magnus + poxwalkers is till super viable. Pretty rough beatin an army with 2 distinct and seperate win conditions.

Plus side, my "fluff" army with an inquisitor in is still fine, which may not be the best army ever, but is actually my favourite.

Also means Celestines still ridiculously viable, she will cost 50 more points to field, but you get an extra gemini and i think she will still consistently tie up more than her points worth of tanks if she isn't just chowing down on chars.

My fire raptor with two twin autocannons and two hell fire missiles with the bolt storm cannon went from 412 pts to 346pts I use this in my current list. Phew I actually don’t need to make many cuts to my army anymore

My thought too haha ! I expected a tiny drop for Deathstorm drop pod….. Meh i won't complain i got a unexpeted drop for my sicarans <3

My Sisters took a hit, for taking Celestine and Repressors my current list went up by 170 pts. If Celestine would buff Sisters instead of every Tom-Dick-and-Harry in the Imperium maybe she wouldn’t have needed to take such a hit.

But if she buffed only Sisters, then they'd actually need to do something about the Sisters army to make people buy her.

I am fully in agreement with this, i would have liekd to see celestine nerfed more elegantly, simply say acts of faith only happen when in a detachment and it would be fine.

My supposition is that when sisters finally get a book this kind of thing will be fixed, but for now, she had to see the price hike, its just the whole 24" move fly char with a tiny base and incredible survivability. She single handedly ties up 300-400pts of tanks from turn 1 onwarads

Holofields :/ They would have been included, but with the new stratagem they just easily saved on a 3++ vs the camera.

On the Barbed Hierodule, note that it has a pair of Massive ScyTals, which got a 38 point drop, so it's overall at just a 2 point increase.

Yeah, but at least it didn't get significantly worse, which I've seen people whining about because they only looked at the base cost change. It's the principle of the thing. There's enough worth genuinely complaining about. Why add to that pile unnecessarily?

It also means that the Scythed Hierodule actually did get a significant price drop, since its base price stayed the same while the ScyTals got cheaper. Not enough to make that good, either, I don't think, but still.

…I'm curious why they dropped the scythed more than the barbed – I'd say the scythed is at least decent, while barbed is bad (double the cost for basically HG. Ummm…pass).

I haven't had a chance to get my 'Dule on the field, and haven't really looked closely at much of anything from FW beyond the Malanthrope, so I can't really say, but that does sound weird. Then again, this is Forge World we're talking about.

Actually you should be happy, the 3 already announced codexes are also having no point changes. It makes no sense to work on a temporay fix, if the codex is only a month away.
So which codex may be the second for january?

Sicaran varients went down, punisher is now the same points as the vanilla one and the venator is 75pts cheaper !

Deimos pred is down 10pts too

Where are you getting 9 points cheaper from?

Codex Predator (90) Predator Autocannon (40) 2 Heavy Bolters (20) total 150

Deimos Predator (90) Predator Autocannon (40) 2 Heavy Bolters (20) total 150

The deimos predator does have an extra wound, but its balanced by the Relic rule.

I'm going off battlescribe for the codex pred ltd and it says a pred autocannon is 49pts. Don't have the codex to check

i feel like chaos is a clear winner here even with the nerf of the malefic lord.

i dont get hiw khorne berserkers did not go up in points (or did i miss something)

also magnus and morty..

Pretty sure there was nothing there about not playing against Poxwalkers but just headesking over one of Andy's hyperbole comments that even make normal hyperbole blush.

There are some armies fielding 100+ pox walkers mixed with cultists or plague bearers and using the "The dead walk again" stratagem as much as possible.

However, it seems whenever this list is actually doing very well, the player is playing some of the rules wrong – for example creating pox walkers whenever other pox walkers die.

I don't think taking multiple units is the best method to play them, you can use brimstones to buff the number past the point they can be beaten in melee, and fabius bile has a 1:3 chance to make them get an extra attack, you pretty much auto win games when he does, the only weak result really is +1S. After he buffs the walkers you can use him to murder your cultists making more poxwalkers and chance to buff cultists to T4 too.

Because the psychic stuff makes them -1 to hit always, and makes them T5 they are incredibly survivable, and its not like alpha legion cultists trade especially badly either.

The games i have lost have all been to losing the poxwalkers on T1. That was to Alpha Legion Beserkers and Ynarri Craftowrld/Harlies both were able to kill the redoubt in a single turn and then clean up the poxwalkers in melee. I think it might be worth to take a seconf 10m poxwalker unit to go in the second redoubt as a fall back plan.

If the DG player is wasting two of their most powerful spells AND taking Fabius Bile out of faction in order to enable a unit of guys with WS5+, I am 100% fine with that. That's investing a hilarious number of points (along with Typhus) all to make one unit of shitty little dudes slightly more competent.

Poxwalkers are useful because of their durability and screening. Their combat is pretty laughable against anything that isn't already a garbage sack, and sacrificing 1/6 of the unit in order to give them a small bonus to a stat is not exciting. You aren't losing to Poxwalkers, you're losing to something else behind the Poxwalkers that you are ignoring as you fruitlessly pump firepower into them.

I would suggest you stick to constructive criticism that i can at least respond to reasonably. As you might recall, my point that razorbacks were bad, was in fact backed up by a great deal of data and experience. If you have faced the Redoubt/Poxwalker army and have a strategy to defeat it, please by all means let me know how so i can learn something.

If you haven't faced the army, why not ask why i think Poxwalkers are so hard to beat, analysis of all the changes actually makes it turn out the poxwalker army is weaker:

1) the redoubt costs so much now it is probably not a viable hidey hole, Fortress of Redemption might be an alternative but lacks the redoubts firepower

2) according to a post i read, a superheavy detachment of magnus morty and a spartan will be against the rules now, and again, detachment issues stop you taking them as auxillary

3) the malefic lord was the only effective cheap HQ for chaos which prices you out of taking the 2nd batallion dropping you from your original 9cp(redoubt version) or 12cp(spartan version) so the 2cp a turn is less affordable.

This combination of changes means you are no longer stuck with the dilema: do i try to kill the poxwalkers and cultists/brimstones or do i deal with the super heavies.

In games i played both with and against the poxwalkers, it amassed an impressive 14-2 record. Notedly it even performs well vs codex nids, which it utterly destroys in melee, and eldar stacking negative modifiers, as it turns out the eldar simply do not have enough anti infantry to take on horde armies.

>as it turns out the eldar simply do not have enough anti infantry to take on horde armies

If the Eldar armies you are seeing don't have much anti-infantry, they are building their army wrong. Shadow Spectres (pre-nerf), Swooping Hawks, and Shining Spears are all fantastic tools against various types of infantry and should be able to clear out things post haste.

I'm aware of the army you speak of, but the thing is the Poxwalkers are not the good part of it. They're just kinda a blob that is intended to be one more thing to deal with- it's the big guys in the list that are doing all the heavy lifting.

I'm not saying Poxwalkers are a bad unit- they're great at the limited job that they do. But there's so very, very many ways to shut them down that I am baffled by the idea that you are losing to them (as opposed to losing to other models in the list.) Do you not have any vehicles or monsters that can charge in and lock them down? Even a humble Rhino or Armored Sentinel will keep a squad of Poxwalkers busy for the rest of the game by itself, and they aren't fast enough to ever avoid being re-charged even after disengaging.

Constructive criticism on hyperbolic comments is hard. Particularly when a lot of us have tried and we basically get a "Yeah but *moves goalposts*". On nearly every topic you speak of. We are always happy for everyone to provide their 2cents; the more opinions and discussion the better but conversations with you are very frustrating.

Your Razorback example is great. You started off with "very much lacking in resilience and shooting" and then moved the conversation to GK ranged shooting is not as efficient as AM shooting (with their buffs). Which, well no shit. But you also have to invest a lot of points for that firebase to be efficient, you are then splitting army buffs which becomes it's own army building issue.

Just because an opinion is held by the masses does not mean it is correct but Razorbacks are consistently an important part of loyalist MEQ armies no matter how you swing the cat at it.

We've had this argument about Poxwalkers when you told us Conscripts were shit. Repeatedly. Despite huge amounts of evidence to the contrary. Poxwalkers are a solid unit, cheap and durable to provide screening. Puppy outlines all of the points necessary to rebut another "unbeatable" statement. How are the Electro-Priests auto-winning games when they charge T1 going?

You will notice that conversations with you generally end up with others not responding anymore after noted levels of frustration.

After you wrote that and pressed Submit Comment did your monitor darken and the mortal combat announcer say KIRBY WINS F A T A L I T Y.

Maybe so, I lose interest in them when I realise that people started arguing with facts and are instead using anecdotal evidence and as for moving the goalposts, in a post about me moving the goalposts, you offer nothing to counter the information i provide that explain how poxwalkers work, reinforce that you have taken nothing on board and still think they just screen things.

Lets not mess about saying they are unbeatable was wrong, they are and have been beaten, but beating them is far from a flippant "oh you just do this".

Whilst my comment exaggerated their usefulness, it is truly staggering how many comments people are making, showing they have absolutely no idea how they even work, they just assume they are bad.

The first super heavy chaos armies were Magnus and X (Aetaos, Zaryknel, Lord of Skulls, Spartan Assault Tank). They ran with either Tzeentch daemons (extra protection vs alpha strike for magnus and Aetoas) or Alpha Legion (cos fuck it when you all in a first turn charge, lets do it right).

Now if you faced it, you know this was not to be fucked with, both Aeatoas and Magnus were enough to win games, and the Lord of Skulls was like a Knight on crack. (Better shooting, better melee, more resilient).

It's weaknesses were screens (good ones by pro players) and grey knights, so you tended to see a huge focus on the anti infantry from the last portion of the army, giving your opponent a valid win condition: kill the none super heavy portion of the army then screen up and outlast the super heavies, they can really only kill so much infantry a turn.

This army was one of the best performing armies, then the death guard book got released:

1) The army went next level cos Mortarion made it way cheaper, you could get a better detachment of Alpha Legion meaning the screens were history, there was no way to screen vs the lord of death, all you could do is make him kill less expensive stuff for a few turns.

2) people started messing with all infantry poxwalker armies, which were absolutely solid, but not nessecarily amazing, the same old tactic of overload your enemies anti X firepower on a whole new level.

3) peopel mashed the two armies together, realising that the best performing its of super heavy chaos were the super heavies, and if you put them with the poxwalkers, you get to have everything, you get a screen for you super heavies, incredible alpha strike, and the ability to win late, because you leverage the damage of your alpha strike.

I have been running iterations of this army for a while, i started using a spartan to carry the poxwalkers (because I knew they were my win condition) but dropped it for Zarakynel cos i didn't need them, I dropped the alpha legion batallion (cos i didn't need another 3cp).

Post Chapter Approved I am not sure how the army looks. In testing the Spartan is just edging out the Lord of Skulls, but perhaps a traitor Knight will be best if he has a 4++, i did some prelimanery checks, but i don't know.

What i do know is the poxwalkers are staying (until they get nerfed), they are without a doubt the best 60pts you can ever spend if you are running a DG detachment, because in any game where they go off, they can win the game outright by themselves. Even when they don't go off, it will cost your opponent ridiculous amounts of resources to get rid of them which means you should come out ahead elsewhere.

Again, i hope that this clarifies my point, that sure, it is not unbeatable, but hopefully you are now educated as to why it is such an incredibly hard thing to deal with, and why the poxwalkers were hiding with the wave serpents in a "Chapter Approved" proof bunker.

I literally referred to Puppy's post which covered everything. You did not respond to him I notice.

And you still have not addressed his points. You've then used your own play experience as an example of "facts" after you have just complained about anecdotal evidence.

Not to mention your army which you just described was focusing on the components other than the Poxwalkers in the army. You know, the dangerous stuff.

My apologies i had replied seems it didn't send, i will redo the post so you can understand why they are considered top tier and just how deadly they are

"The Dead Walk Again" 1 command point.

From start of your movement phase until the start of your next movement phase, for every infantry model friend or foe killed within 7" of the pox walkers, add 1 model to the unit.

"Cloud of flies" 1 command point.

From the start of your movement phase until the start of your next movement phase, you may only target the poxwalkers if they are the closest enemy unit.

"Veterans of the long war"

+1 to wound until the end of the fight phase (note there are two nearly identical stratagems of the same name one in codex deathguard 1 in Codex CSM, the CSM one does not specify <Legion> so can be happily applied to the poxwalkers too)

Myth one, pox walkers are incredibly slow and can never reach anything. Truth they are fucking slow, but because any phase in which one dies you can add a pox walker in coherency, you gain 2 and a half inches of movement, using brimstones as I was originally, you can get them to get across pretty tidely, but they seem to be going just fine without them as after turn 1, Mortarion does not urgently need warp time, he is pretty fast.

Myth two, they are pretty bad in combat

Yup, 4+ to hit s3 2a no pen 1 dmg. No two ways about it thats terrible, but with the buffs from the psykers that were buffing morty S5 with 2A hitting on 2's wounding most infantry on 2's is well frankly pretty okay. Its possible to stack buffs and have them wound everything on a 2+ but its frankly a little cheesy and should get errata'd.

myth Three, there are 20 of them

Usually, the final tally as they hit melee is around 50 or so on turn 3, (games where morty is alive at this point it is usually much higher, the poxwalkers can get close enough for his t2 kills to add to their number and things get -really- silly from that point).

Now this is a conundrum for a shooting army, how do you deal with them, T1 for sure kill them if you can, if not mow down all the cultists.

For a melee army, it is almost checkmate. They are so good in melee, and even if you trade 10:1 with the cultists, you still end up facing more pox walkers the following phase.

Finally it is not some humongous points investment required, just to run the strategy you can go with a Patrol Detachment of Typhus + 10 poxwalkers 235pts do what ever you were going to do with the rest of your chaos army. Just los the poxwalkers turn 1 and proceed with the game as normal.

Sigh. Nobody is arguing Poxwalkers are not good and a useful unit in what is probably the best army currently in 40k.

What they are saying is they are not "already all but unbeatable". Goal posts change again.

"Maybe so, I lose interest in them when I realise that people started arguing with facts"

Yeah, Andy….it's interesting that you yourself seem to realise the problem. People respond to you using facts, and you lose interest in having a discussion.

As has been said, you move goal posts. You do this a lot.

You argue from the authority of your play experience (which is a flaw we all have, but I don't think anyone here actually considers your play experience meaningful, while I'm pretty sure some of the people who are commenting against you – very much NOt including me! – have significant reputations. Who are you that we should care about your experience to such a degree?).

You are hyperbolic, and then get incredibly defensive when people disagree with your hyperbole.

You aren't really helping yourself here.

That's as maybe, i don't really think i can argue with your assessment, and i realise i do myself no favours, that said I am pretty confident that every player here who posted that pox walkers are a screening unit, would be rubbing their heads in confusion at how they lost as 150 of the bloody things ran over their army.

I haven't managed to sucintly explain how tricky poxwalkers are, i really hope some people will just proxy up the army play against it so they can see what they are dealing with

i was however wrong about the Eldar anti infantry, in fact despite being pretty poor compared to Aggressors, it is exactly the tool for the job vs poxwalkers.

I ran this:

Ynarri Spearhead (1cp):

Yvraine (warlord)
10 * Shadow Spectres (ynarri)
10 * Fire Dragons (ynarri)
5 * howling banshees (ynarri)
5 * howling banshees (ynarri)

Harlequin Battalion (3cp)

1 * troupe master
1 * shadowseer
12 * harlequin with embrace (ynarri)
5 * troupe with fusion and embrace
5 * troupe with fusion and embrace
1 * starweaver
1 * starweaver

Altaioc Supreme Command:
1 * wave Serpent
3 * warlock

I lost, but it was incredibly close, the shadow spectres are still ridiculous, but having 2 sets of jetpack infantry that can both move (or well have a chance to, i had to use soulburst from Yvraine to move the Shadow Spectres up after quicken whiffed) is just incredible. I think they will be a real nightmare for imp guard to deal with, scout sentinels are a must have.

As you mentioned earlier i didnt respond to puppy, because i felt he had made enough of a fool of himself so i was cutting him a break but if you insist:

"Poxwalkers are useful because of their durability and screening. Their combat is pretty laughable against anything that isn't already a garbage sack, and sacrificing 1/6 of the unit in order to give them a small bonus to a stat is not exciting. You aren't losing to Poxwalkers, you're losing to something else behind the Poxwalkers that you are ignoring as you fruitlessly pump firepower into them. "

1) they are durable, fair, though, i tend to think you want a new word to describe a unit that threatens to triple in size if you don't kill it on turn 1, still, okay good point

2) they screen. Wrong, they are screened. they are your most valuable unit on turn 1 and everything you can should be done to stop them dying on turn 1, after that good luck killing them.

3) their combat is laughable: even if you fluff every single psychic power, they are still 100+ A hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's (3's vs t4) get some of them off they are 100+ A hitting on 2's wounding on 2's and that is all she wrote for virtually anything 75 2+ saves please sir.

4) "losing to something else as you fruitlessly pump firepower into them" fruitlessly pump firepower into the infantry screening them, growing their number in an attempt to kill all the infantry before the the poxwalkers reach you.

5) "sacrificing 1/6 for a small bonus to stat." i'm sorry is a 50% increase in their A a small bonus? and it a) disgustingly resilient works vs Fabius, b) its 1/6 of the original number at the point you know they can no longer be attacked unless they are the closest model, which generally turns out to be less than 5% of their total number as the game goes on. (and often less than 1%).

"Swooping hawks are fantastic anti infantry" uhm. 4 s3 shots with no pen? a 13pt imperial guardsman? oh wait no guardsman get to reroll all misses. Hawks are an okay unit cos you can deep strike them then move them 12" with quicken or soulburst then charge the enemies tanks, basically slightly more blue celestines in the process doing some random damage to random stuff, but they really aren't anti anything, their guns are way over costed.

Almost all of the major point changes were for factions that already have codices. Factions without a codex didn't get many, presumably because they will be getting one in relatively short order with the release of their codex. It makes sense, even if it's not thrilling for those players that only field one tournament army.

The massive price hikes on the superheavies are pretty laughable, though. Almost all of them are unonscionsably bad now.

Assuming there’s no rule changes. My assumption is they got a lot harder to hurt without macro weapons. Meaning they had to be priced at a point they couldn’t be fielded in skirmishes.

Interesting to see how PL interacts with these changes, some units are much better using pl some a lot worse. Effective armies in official gw tournies look massively different to ITC ones.

FW Space Marines, TLDR version, Sicarans dropped, Super Heavies can go back on the shelf.

Caestus Assault Ram +30
Deimos Predator -15
Fire Raptor Gunship -60 Twin Autocannons -3 each
Infernum pattern Razorback+5
Land Speeder Tempest -14
Lucius Dreadnought Drop Pod -40
Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer +200
Falchion Super Heavy Tank +200
Fellblade Super Heavy Tank +200
Javelin Attack Speeder +7
Mastadon Super Heavy Transport +200
Sicaran no change to chassis but main weapon -75
Sicaran Punisher -20 main weapon -50
Sicaran Venator -75
Typhon Heavy Siege Tank +200
Siege Dreadnought -20
Sokar Pattern Stormbird +1349
Tarantula Air Defence Battery +10
Tarantula Sentry Gun+10
Thunderhawk Gunship +680
Thunderhawk Transporter +580
Xiphon Interceptor +30

Some of the choices are a bit weird. I was hoping the Harlequin’s Solitaire would go down in points, as he’s about 25pts overcosted compared to be a regular 5 man Troupe and the comparable damage etc.

Need to take into account with no help whatsoever the solitaire is a serious threat to T1 charge and kill most chars on the other side. Then soulburst itself and go lock up 1 or 2 enemy tanks. She’s expensive sure but value for money? I think so.

The fact that she costs so much more than a troupe master, is merely because troupe masters are ludicrously undercosted.

I really think I’d be more ok with these changes if there had been more emphasis on making previously non-competitive choices better. I mean there was some focus on that (Death Guard for example) but then other factions like Necrons and Tau got actual nothing and factions like Guard got the nerf bat hard while there are still bizarre things in the book like 40 point terribad demolisher cannons. And WTF is the deal with the meltagun nerf? If anything they were slightly too expensive before getting their price jacked up. This whole thing is just half-assed as Hell.

So what confuses me a bit are the Deathwatch changes and lack of updates in some regards:

1. Deathwatch terminators are still 32 points for the body? Still seems excessive for you to pay 8 points for fearless

2. They get cheap storm shields now at least so i’d expect to see storm shield spam coming from them now since nearly every model can take it

3. Librarian with jump pack? Deathwatch can’t take them. Index says only captains can take jump packs. Does this mean they can take them now?

4. Same regard: librarians with termie armor retain their previous 145 tag even though every other army saw a decrease

5. Heavy thunder hammers are unchanged. With thunder hammers being just shy of literally half the points

It;s certainly strange. the way kill teams work is the high cost high resilience units shield the high cost glass cannons. Obviously with the amount of plasma rounds flying around it is still not especially effective, but thats an issue with plasma costs, not the kill team.

The way i look at it, they gave me a SS for the sergeant now to go with the one on the black shield and my unit is 5 pts cheaper.

Heavy thunder hammers i was never fond of, they cost nearly as much as a frag cannon and have way less damage output and you have to melee to use them. But with the decrease in Storm hammers i will probably buy a few with the points saved.

I am more interested that i can now field Primaris Death Watch, though i think they will be basically crap unless they give them the bolter ammo.

It's from a PDF they released on their website saying that Deathwatch gets access to "ALMOST" all Primaris.

Primaris Captain
Primaris Chaplains
Primaris Apothecaries
Primaris Aggressors
Primaris Intercessors
Primaris Inceptors
Primaris Hellblasters
Primaris Reivers
Primaris Repulsor Tank

No Lieutenants or Ancients, both of which Deathwatch would have loved. But at least they get Apothecaries.

Sadly Special Issue Ammunition specifically says "When this unit…" which means it has to have the special rule.

Which means that NONE of the Primaris units can use the Special Issue Ammo.

Neither can:

Since even though they get access to the Deathwatch keyword, they do NOT gain the 'Special Issue Ammunition' rule.

Prior to the nerfs i had already suggested the vampire raider could be used similarly to the sokar, whilst the lack of firepower is noticeable, it is easily replaced with a few Crimson Hunters, the innate -2 to hit -12" range pretty much means it will win any shooting war, and it is immune to being charged by the vast majority of troops.

The nerf to the Redoubt means the redoubt can't answer it, and i am not sure anything else can get the required firepower, add in some psyker support and it is incredibly hard to kill, if not flat out impossible.

A mistaken ommission soon to be corrected or the last bastion of super heavy transport armies?

Welp! There goes Space Marines! Seriously, nerfing razorbacks is fine, but can we have actualy fixes to the prices of our overcosted units, please? Like, almost all of our infantry is grossly overcosted.

Oh and the Stormraven didn't need to be nerfed. Having played with them a lot, they pack a mean punch but are ridiculously fragile for their cost. Rarely did mine live past Turn 2. I was already planning to cut them from my list – now the choice is easy.

It's whats known as "we know what the problem is, we don't want to nerf it too much, so we nerf this other stuff that isn't a problem but is part of the army"

The correct fix was increase the wounds on predators, which is what makes them garbage, by all means leave them t7 but at least give them marginal protection in the form of 14w or so, make them at least stand up a little to leman russes in a firefight. and make them compare more favourably to razorbacks.

they instead went with, we nerf razorbacks, who were already a bad unit (coming in at just under a leman russes ppw vs T8, but far flimsier).

I am not sure they needed to change prices so much as give units decent weapon options, maybe some close combat weapons with pen on for reivers could be a possibility? Allow terminators to field all heavy weapons instead of the laughable one per unit.

The problem is that "elite" infantry is generally overcosted. Marines stand up to bolter fire about as well as the equivalent of points' worth of Guardsmen, but fare far worse as soon as plasma and other high AP weapons enter play. To compound matters, they do a lot less damage than the equivalent amount of points of Guardsmen. They would need to come down in points enough so that they would be more cost-effective against "small arms"-type weapons but worse against high AP ones while also reaching better parity in the firepower department.

Straight comparing Leman russes and predators to the Razorback completely ignoring its role as a transport makes me believe you 100% understand the unit.

Transporting what?

For sure, there is some value in hiding out of LoS (if you can) Turn 1 then moving out to deliver troops and fire mitigating some of the incoming firepower, but at such a serious cost in your own firepower it is hardly worth it.

In my marine detachments, they all have either a) better transports, or b) deep strike/infiltrate and simply don't care. Sure i can buy a razorback to protect my devastators, or i could just buy another squad of devastators and be better off.

Exactly the same cost/benefit can be applied when considering rhinos, whilst it is not strictly a straight comparison, because you are upgrading bolter weapons on your devastators who are soaking up wounds that would kill your heavy weapons, 10 tactical combat squadding in (130) in 2 razorbacks (240) vs 10 devastators with 4 lascannons (240) in a rhino (74)

314pts vs 370pts for an identical amount of firepower turn on turn (cherub gives option for better alpha strike) but hitting on 2's with half the shots, and if salamanders re-rolling to hit and to wound with first missed hit and wound each turn. Alternatively permanently -1 to hit at 12" and over thanks to raven guard.



He thinks space marines are overcosted, ever looked at Necrons? We've never been in a worse state and so far all I've seen is GW shitting on us further at every opportunity.

Necrons have viable transports. Thats all i got sorry, your right, necrons are in terrible shape in a world where aggressors are this good.

You know that these things are not mutually exclusive, right? You could have overcosted SM AND even more overcosted 'Crons.

The thing I'm finding in my games is that all you're really paying for with most basic infantry is bodies on the table. They don't actually do much, other than hide on objectives and try not to die.

Guard Infantry (seemingly your current bugbear) is the clearest example of this for me. Yeah, they're cheap compared to other infantry, possibly even objectively cheap for their damage output – but their damage output is nevertheless fuck-all. What was the stat from the other thread… something like 90 Guard Infantry can just barely kill a single squad of Marines if they all somehow manage to get into rapid-fire range? What a goddamn waste of time.

No it takes 18 Guardsmen (9 in RF range) to kill a single Marine.That might seem like a lot but thats less than 80 points' worth of models. Comparatively, it would take almost exactly the same amount of points' worth of Hellblasters to do the job.

So that's 90 Guard in RF range to kill a squad of Marines, exactly like I said? 😛

My point is that the kind of firepower that can, at best, kill a single Marine here and there is just mopping-up duty. Yes, those Infantry Squads are cheap, but they're not doing any heavy lifting unless you bring an absolute shit-ton of bodies. At that point, you start running into a whole other set of problems, and you can almost certainly get more effective firepower elsewhere.

Oops lol I misread what you had written as needing 90 Guardsmen to kill a single Marine, not a single SQUAD of Marines.

For sure you wouldn't want to rely solely on basic dudes but they do fulfill an important function in an army and thus it would be nice for Marines not to suck donkey balls.

did anyone notice aetaos' is now 1500pts before wargear? apparently they don't want him used in games anymore…

Almost all of the Titanic models from FW went up in points by absurd amounts. SuperUltraMegaChicken ("is only myth!") was the most notable due to making a bunch of appearances at tournaments along the east coast, but plenty of others got hit by the nerf as well.

To be fair Aetaos was all but unkillable, but take a look at the points costs for demons, 666 for Zaryknel (devil sign) 777 for Scabie (nurgles number) 888 for Angroth (8 sided star of chaos)

Pretty sure, you can't claim to be seriously trying to balance a game, when you can at the same time arbitrarily assign values to units based on some cool "look the numbers look cool!" thing.

Also the line in Blood Angels about a new wound table, now that makes sense, if you can't inflict dmg on a revenant with a s4 attack, maybe its worth more than 1200pts

As it is, the only balance to the super heavies i thin was valid was the sokar, which was utterly undefeatable unless you ran the redoubt, even then doubling points cost implies to me, that rules must have changed, cos otherwise you may aswell just hold your hands in the air and say guys look, it is pretty obvious we can't balance this stuff for shit, play what you like we just gonna nerf what wins and make it look like we know what we are doing.

Sorry adding a caveat to this, again, the vampire raider did -not- see a huge nerf, it is still an utter beast and you stand zero chance of killing one -2 to hit at over 12" and it takes 12" off the range of all weapons 4++. What it doesn't have is the sokars firepower and T9 (which made the sokar stupidly tough)

The Vampire Raider is an 850pt garbage sack. It brings about the same firepower to the table as two Crimson Hunter Exarchs, but is almost five times the cost and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less than five times as survivable. Also, it doesn't have the -12" range rule on it, you are confusing it with the other big flyers.

All those anti-shooting shenanigans seem really cheeky until someone just starts dropping Smites on it, or blocks off its movement, or just kinda ignores it because it doesn't really do anything.

Pages 70 and 71 – Vampire Raider and Vampire Hunter Add the following ability: ‘Colossal Flyer: When targeting this model with shooting attacks and psychic powers, always measure to the model’s hull where it would be at tabletop level, even if it is on a flying base. In addition, unless the attacking model has the Fly keyword, add 12" to the measured distance to determine the range when making shooting attacks against this model. Note that this means many short-ranged shooting weapons will not be able to hit this model. Also, this model does not suffer the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons.’

It's 860pts vs 5 Crimson hunter Exarchs 875, and you are correct it possesses roughly 40% of the firepower, but on the resilience side i think you are gravely mistaken. It's 4++ and T8 at -2 to hit make it incredibly frustrating to try and bring down before you take into account the huge amount of anti tank stuff that can't even hit it. A better comparison of its worth is vs 3 wave serpents, and i think the brilliance of these is what makes it a nice idea thats probably not viable.

As for your other points i am more than a bit confused, I was not aware you could block off it's movement, it has fly keyword and can turn 90 at start and end and it can move 50" That is quite an impressive piece of micro if you managed to find a way to force it to go into hove mode.

Finally i don't think you can ignore it, remember it is super heavy, it is not a flyer, it has no reason to deposit any troops onto the ground unless there is some advantage to be gained, this was always the issue with the Sokar, how do you stop it just flying around shooting you up to the point that the troops on board are enough to take a chosen engagement.

I don't want you to mistake this for the sokar, it is not even close to in the sokars league (though, i feel the troops it carries are a bit better than most space marines)

Again, as i said before, proxy it and have a go fighting it, just like the pox walkers i am sure you will find it is actually considerably tougher than you thought.

Yeah i get that, but otherwise i just can't fathom it out, i fight with the titanic stuff on a daily basis, over 50% of games i play include Apocalypse units, but they are all pretty meh if not completely so.

Without a fundamental change to it's game mechanics a Revenant Titan is expected to take on 2k points of stuff? It has been succesful in preciscely one game so far, and the reason? Stompa's are even worst than it is. Though maybe it does okay into 4 knights, i never checked because the new version of 4 knights, 2 primarchs rips it to pieces like it is a child's dolly.

Thats at 1200 pts, now it costs 800 more?

Maybe i am opening myself up for disapointment, but i have to believe GW understand their game a bit more than that, although, as i mentioned already i am very disapointed to see them playing silly buggers with the Arch Daemons points costs. If these changes are real, and no rule changes, I am playing a game where the designers can get the values of units out by over 100%.

When i first saw the changes i was like, oh wow they care they are really trying, and the more i analyse them its like, k so they care and try i guess but then get bored and just half arse it. A Reaver Titan is exactly 4k points? well may aswell make tac Marines 10pts then to make it easy to add up.

So all I have to do is not buy this $35 book and I can continue using the units in my codex, yeah? Are they giving this book out for free digitally?

I notice these not includes the rest of non-Guards non-Space Marine Imperium, no Eldar, no Necron, No Daemon

"non-Guards non-Space Marine Imperium"
…Umm…Ad Mech and Adeptus Ministorum are both there. There's…not really any other Imp stuff (a handful of sub-factions).
"no Eldar, no Necron, No Daemon"
Presumably because they've just had a Codex (Craftworlds) and because they're close to getting a new one (Crons/Daemons) like BA/DA/Tau. Though I'd think they'd not have that many out that quick…anyway.

Well what about Necron and Tau, and no don't tell me they are close to get codex the fact we not even sure when, it could be Space Wolf or Deathwatch next.

And when I say non-guard non-space marine, my apology let's me be more clear, the whole Ministorum Sisters and Inquisition…..Admech but a smaller branch which mean little.

Sisters got updated: not much _changed_ but they're there. And don't say 'smaller branch' with Admech: it's all the same lot now, there isn't Skitarii/Cult Mech split in the Codex (and heck, I'm pretty sure they've got updates on both sides. Sure, it's not everything. No faction got everything updated). If it didn't change, that's almost certainly because GW didn't think it needed to change (rightly or wrongly, I won't comment).

Inquisition and assassins, yes. And they could probably have all done with a pts update, true. But on the whole, there's…not much they missed.

Other than Tau/Crons/Daemons. Which again: I'm almost positive we know BA/DA/Tau are the next 3. None of those have pts updates. So it's not a stretch to say that Crons/Daemons will be the next 2, and it's a very deliberate decision (again, not going to say it's the _right_ decision, but understandable). And SW/Deathwatch will be even later, and thus are in it. At a guess, I'd say this is to tide over to March: anything that's going to be released in between is not included, everything that isn't is included. But that's just a hypothesis.

I would wait a bit before thinking these are final points cost til next year:

Grey knight thunderhawk 1130, Space marine thunderhawk 1330, this is either GW saying the ability to deep strike infantry means the carrying capacity of the thunderhawk is of zero value….. or they fucked up.

Garg squiggoths are 471 for 35w t8 and a melee stat line that makes mortarion look weak. probably undercosted by 400pts with changes to all super heavy that arent gw ones.

likewise aggressors are now just disgusting, going from a RG only super special, to an alll day everyday staple unit.

I already mentioned the vampire and the imp fortress walls, redoubt etc, the just haven't got the costings close to blanced, unless your telling me a turbo laser destuctor actually is a 550pt gun at 4+ bs (bastion is tougher than redoubt, no turbo laser destructor).

We'll see, atm the points costs are super lazy with no attention to detail