Blog changes: pictures

Thoughts on the new pictures? Certainly breaks up the posts a bit more and I have found some pretty models! Do you prefer the indented style with the Vindicator or heading style of the Kanz/Dragons/etc? Too big? Feedback please!

Armies in 5th: Orks Part 5: Summary


Well we’ve arrived at the end of the Ork articles quickly in terms of content (if not time) and you’ll find this becomes a recurrent theme. The newer books and more competitive ones will have more to cover (particularly the newer books) as there are more variables I need to cover. Again remember I’m doing the first armies from the perspective of the under/over-rated armies in 5th edition currently. Digressing…

So we’ve looked at Orks as a whole and made some against the internet grain conclusions (i.e. Trukks are bad, Wazdakka is good, Orks are bad, etc.) based on sound principles and logic. Dispute of these leads to death :)! Now not all is lost for the Ork army, whilst you’re certainly never going to compete in the ‘top tiers’ of army lists in the hands of a compete general some of the better lists put out have the ability to win games regularly. Remember no one likes lots of S7 coming their way and you do have that normal bell curve on your side (see: Crisis suits and number of shots). But what about those units I didn’t really cover? Let’s take a look now.

Nob Bikers. We covered these briefly as a potential mini-close combat unit but otherwise said they were bad but didn’t really go into why. Unlike a Seer Council or Command Bike Squad, Nob Bikers will not make a balanced list. Both Councils and Commands are built in 24″ armies, don’t take up so many points the rest of the army doesn’t get a decent chunk and has a list around it that in isolation is very effective. Nob Bikers do not have any of this and this makes them easy to predict and sacrifice units to. Add in the firepower or certain psychic powers armies like IG, SM, SW, BA and Tyranids have and well, they just aren’t effective.

We said Lootas are hands-down the best Elite and unfortunately there are some semi-decent units in there we could of used elsewhere such as Nobz or Meganobz (hint for next codex GW make these Troop choices with an SC!). Both of the Nobz options are very feasible choices and if you wanted to drop a Loota squad for more Buggies and grab some more of these guys that’s certainly an option but remember you need to shore up your anti-tank as much as possible. The other options, Kommandos, Burna Boyz and Tankbustas are all crap “aspect warriors.” They each try to bring to bear a large amount of specialisation rarely seen out of Eldar (i.e. mass meltaguns or in this case Rokkits) but with crappy BS and reliance on numbers it doesn’t really work for Orks. You want cheap Ork Boyz, not expensive ones.

Other than that we just have the Stormboyz which I haven’t covered. Again the Deffkoptas and Buggies are your best options here for early alpha striking or TL-rokkits (Warbikers are useful as troops). Stormboyz are again basic Boyz but have that extra ability (able to move 12″). This ability however will leave them out to dry where they are going to get shot. Move into terrain and you’re going to lose 1/6 of your squad. At 12pts a model? Again not useful and they eat into your anti-tank.

So you should now be able to make an Ork list which is capable of not getting hammered every game where you are maximising your chances of popping mech. Whilst in comparison to lists on the internet you have much less anti-infantry power and close combat ability, these are useless if you can’t destroy mech. With the outlines I’ve given in my articles there are quite a few variations on what you can take which revolve around the same concept (you can’t get everything “good” in) compared to the Tau codex which after 1000 pts becomes a repeating of units (though these units are miles better than what the Ork codex has to offer currently).

With all that being said the Orks are still a sub-par army that isn’t really capable of dealing with mech. By only having 3 “reliable” anti-tank units (the Lootas) and not being able to put out the accurate firepower that can slow enemy mech (like Tyranids) they will often be on the backfoot contrary to what the internet thinks (if you do think Orks are good, speak up. You’ve been rather quiet since Trukks). I’ll drop a sample list below (which I just changed because I can’t follow codex rules properly :P).

HQ –
Wazdakka

Warboss w/Power Klaw, Bike

Elites –
Lootas x11

Lootas x11

Lootas x11

Troops –
3x Nobz w/combi-skorchas
Battlewagon w/’ard case, Deffrolla, 2 big shootas

10x Gretchin

5x Warbikes

5x Warbikes

Fast Attack –
2x Buggies w/TL-Rokkits

2x Buggies w/TL-Rokkits

3x Deffkoptas w/TL-Rokkits, 1 w/Buzzsaw

Heavy Support –
3x Kanz w/Grotzookas

3x Kanz w/Grotzookas

Battlewagon w/’ard case, Deffrolla, 2 big shootas

Total: 2000 pts
12 vehicles
61 infantry (15 bikes)

So not at all a convetional list. I’ve gone here for a Kanz wall behind the BWs. The Buggies/Deffkoptas are your mobile light anti-armor and the Deffkoptas can get a 1st turn alpha strike in on some heavier armor if needed with the buzzsaw + scout. Lootas are pretty standard with their shooting otherwise Battlewagons advance with Bikers & KFF to push into midfield. Now remember your Fast Attack is there to land some hits, they are never going to reliably pop tanks so we want them to be limiting your opponent’s mobility and shooting whilst your Lootas pop transports. This allows the Kanz and Deff Rollas to get into position where you will have a strong midefield presence. Wazdakka can play tag with the Warbikes & Koptas as needed or munch on weak backline units. Your scoring is a bit weak but you’ve got 2 AV14/12/10 proper tanks holding units which won’t do much until late game. If your opponents shoot at them early, yay. Make sure to angle them to get as much AV14 as possible.

Again, not the most competitive of lists and there are certainly other variables that can fit into such a list but you at least have a fair chance now against mech’d armies.

Edit: Because I fail I messed up the list and have just given it a band-aid fix really. GWvsJohn’s list here is probably a better example but using a Nob Bikers unit. I’ll try and make it a more reasonable list ASAP which is more efficient. Thank you GWvsJohn and MagicJuggler for pointing out my mistake.

Armies in 5th: Orks Part 4: Heavy Support


Well I’m back here with some Ork articles. Now to build a solid all-round list we’ve pretty much used up all of our Elite/FA/HQ slots and Troops have been used to bolster the army’s midfield presence whilst not grabbing attention too much. We’ve also discussed adding in some Battlewagons w/Deff Rollas for some extra anti-mech as nothing likes S10 but let’s look at what else we can add into the HS slots. We’ve got 2 slots to use if we have 2 BWs (one being dedicated from Nobs).

Looted Wagons are out. With a boomgun they are a huge target which pretty much auto scatters, can sometimes not work right and has a low AV value + open-topped (though it can get a ‘ard case). Not really what we want in our heavy support. Add in the fact the transport capacity gets removed when you add the Boomgun and it’s a sub-par transport compared to the BW… How about Dreadnoughts? A decent combo if you’ve taken some Big Mek HQs as you can get 3-4 of these guys running about. With good AV and decently cheap it’s not that bad of a choice but it’s slow in comparison to the rest of the army and doesn’t really have that great shooting (2 weapons @ BS2) though it should generally be running anyways. It’s a pretty solid choice but what about their smaller brethern the Kans?

40pts cheaper for 1 less AV and less A in combat but the ability to take up to 3 per slot and a blast weapon with a decent BS but again we are probably going to want to run these up to support the rest of the army. So seeing as we can take two for every one of the Dreads, the kans are probably a better option. You get two vehicles, the same amount of guns (if they are used), the same base A (and more on the charge) but one less front and side AV. Pretty good deal. Also remember they have squadron rules so can always move but will die on an immob result.

So Kans seem to be apretty good option here. They are adding some good cc punch with some semi-decent anti-infantry firepower if they don’t run but what about Gunz or Flash Gitz? Flash Gitz are expensive and inaccurate with only 1 shot unlike say Lootas who have 1-3 shots. The problem is you also don’t know what type of shooting you are getting each turn. AP6 or AP1 can make a huge difference but is really unreliable if you are hoping for the low AP. The Dakka and Shootier upgrades are pretty nice for these guys as it gives them more duality and more shots to mitigte their low BS but this makes them 35pts a piece. For the base cost of a Kan? and when you’ve already got Lootas? Not worth it.

So the final option outside of Kans and BWs is Big Gunz. They have 3 options, Kannon, Lobba and Zzap Gun. The Zzap Gun is unreliable like the Flash Gitz and are obviously primarly aimed at anti-mech but with their variable strength…no go. Lobbas don’t use BS as much being a blast weapon but only have 1 S more than the Kannon which can like a standard missile launcher has some decent duality. So the kannon has a blast option and straight shot exactly like the missile launcher at range 36″. With one of the better BS’s for Orks these seem viable. Personally I’m not a fan and prefer Kans or more BWs but the ability to throw out some more S8 on T1 and then drop blasts on infantry is pretty decent. Another problem is they are an artillery unit and thus quite fragile with any dedicated long range unit able to knock them out early or even a bolter drive-by being decently effective.

Overall your best bet is more Mech through BWs or Kans. If you have a Big Mek and have taken Dreads in Troops slots they can be picked over the Kans. This adds armor saturation to the Ork army and can provide more punch in CC which most of the best units inthe Ork codex don’t really do ‘that’ well.

So next up I’ll cover any other units I haven’t really covered and why, summarise what I’ve been saying and how the codex fits into 5th edition and give a sample army list. If you’d like anything else covered let me know.

BoLS and Eldar


Well for their follow-up post to Eldar in 5th edition it could of been worse and I’m quite impressed with a few nuggets of “gold” such as:

With a mech list you are paying for speed, fire power and defense against small arms fire. To get this you typically have to give up numbers. What this means is that what you do take must perform its function in your list well, or you will not win games. This list’s overall strategy is speed, overwhelming force applied where needed, and the ability to always alpha strike your enemy and react to him after he has committed to his game plan.

That’s pretty good general advice and particulary applies to Eldar due to their 24″ movement speed. So kudos to Bigred there. Now I don’t want to rage all over BoLS again (I’m getting too old for that) but if you can find Smurfy’s comment he rages pretty well :P. I’m going to pick out what irks me the most and show why it’s wrong. If you have any other questions about this post just let me know and I’ll explain (or if you want to know what other nuggets of “gold” there are in there…). So let’s see what Bigred says about Eldar Elites…

The next section to fill this list out is Elites, where Eldar are spoiled for choice.

No they are not. They have let’s see…Fire Dragons and Harlequins and in most games you want to be using triple Fire Dragons. Why do Banshsees/Scorpions not work? Their reliance on a transport. If you were making an assault based army, that’s fine (see Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc.) as you don’t have a max of 3 “assault units”. As it is, getting into assault range with these two units is difficult. Zoom forward and get surrounded and if you are destroyed, byebyesquad or leave yourself some room and watch your opponent run away (because they are generally mech’d up, too). This means at some point against competent players you have to get out on foot a turn before you can launch an assault and then they are dead. Harelquins can at least move quickly w/MTC, fleet and an invul save + their Veil of Tears. Furthermore, what do Banshees and Scorpions scare in combat? Orks for Scorpions (or anything with I4 or less and high saves) and that’s about it. Banshees need Doom to work. Sorry, but I’d rather Doom something I can shoot to death because if the Banshees don’t wipe their opponent, they’ll suffer a lot of deaths with T3/4+. Oh and if they do wipe their opponent they suffer a horrible death to shooting (again here Harlequins at least have an invul, Veil of Tears and Hit & Run). So really Banshees need a Farseer to run properly with Doom/Fortune and relying on another unit for one unit to work is not a good idea. Scorpions are a glorified and slower Assault Marine squad (who aren’t great at combat) but they have the added disadvantage of needing a transport. And then taking either of these (or Harlequins) makes you lose out on Fire Dragons. Hands up if your army wants a squad which costs 16pts a model with a BS4 meltagun and meltabombs. Every army raises their hands. It’s simply that good.

For this list I think a solid mix of units is the best choice as in a tournament or league setting where you may not know who your opponent will be, you need to be prepared for any list. Therefore, taking one full unit of Fire Dragons with an Exarch with Firepike and Crack Shot, a full unit of Banshees with an Exarch with an Executioner and Acrobatic, and a full squad of Striking Scorpions with an Exarch with a Claw and Shadow Strike, all of them in Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones with Shuriken Cannons, gives you a wide range of very fast units able to engage a number of different opponents. I know many number crunchers will make the argument that 6 Fire Dragons is the optimal amount to destroy any vehicle (baring a monolith), and that no more than 8 of an assault unit are needed as it makes the squad points inefficient, but in practice with a list with this few bodies, you need to get more than one assault out of the combat specialists and those fire dragons need to destroy more than one tank to make the list function. More bodies mean more endurance on the board. Also, since in 5th the ability to outflank is transferred to the unit’s dedicated transport, the Striking Scorpions are able to come on from a flank if needed which can really disrupt an opponent’s plans.

So, tournament settings. Fire Dragons again. Everyone has some form of tank/MC or high T/low save unit out there. If not ya DBF is pretty damn good. Why are we taking other squads again? Where does our redundency come in? If you do versus a mech player they are going to target your Dragons and when they are gone what is your fall-back for anti-tank? In a list w/3x Dragons in Serpents that’s 300% better anti-tank. That’s 300% more anti-tank targets your opponent has to shoot at. And if you’ve spread your other AT across your other units (i.e. BLs on Troop Serpents, etc.) there are more anti-tank units to deal with. The pattern? Overwhelm your opponent with targets. Taking one squad when it’s very feasible to take two or three is asking your opponent to exploit your weakneses. And they will.

Don’t need Spirit Stones all the time as well. On Dragons I like them because it helps you get over on T2 more reliably but again, 3 targets + whatever else you have. They are not necessary but too many Eldar players think the game is “hope I don’t die and then tankshock end-game”. That’s a bad battle plan. The ability to tankshock end game is excellent but is not a battleplan. Also, tell your opponent to neutralise all your Mech by T6 when you’ve got 9+ AV12 fast skimmers out there. 90 extra points = another Vyper.

Btw Striking Scoprions flanking =/= win. It leaves them isolated and alone 33% of the time.

P.S. that picture is from here. Some really nice paintjobs and kudos to Redbeard.

Vindicators in BA/SW

I won’t do an article on the strengths and weaknesses of the Vindicator. Most of you know I’m not a fan of it due to it’s short range, one gun and side armor combination as being very situational (as well as being very overpriced against MC lists). However, Raptor1313 does a good analysis here and I would recommend you read it. This mostly comes from browsing forums on SW and BA and seeing a lot of people taking 2-3 Vindis and lauding over them as fire magnets, etc. etc.

Both SW and BA are assault oriented armies. You can certainly make armies that are more shooty (i.e. 6 Preds) and disdain close combat all together but when you have lists with units like Terminators/Land Raiders, Thunderwolves, ASM, Vanguard, etc. (i.e. you are building an assault army) it is futile to take a Vindicator. Your army is designed to get close, even before combat with guns like meltaguns/bolters/flamers and what’s the best tactic against Imperial Guard (generally)? Get close because their ordnance becomes less useful due to some min-ranges and the ability for blasts to scatter back onto the IG army. Whilst BA/SW assault oriented armies want you to get closer, sinking 250-400 pts into tanks that become less useful as you close with your enemy isn’t the most tactically viable. With BA the Fast rule certainly opens up some more tactical choices in the ability to move 12″ first turn and fire but is 1 or maybe 2 turns of “safe” shooting from 2-3 Vindicators really worth that many points? Honestly, no.

Again, I’m not a fan of the Vindicator but in such close combat oriented lists they seem to exaggerate all that I dislike about them and they don’t make tactical sense. I don’t like them in normal lists but you can argue for them rationally but with these type of lists it just seems…stupid. Now with the BA fast rule on them I think you can make some more impressive lists than you can with the Vanilla SM dex in relation to Vindicators but having any sort of close combat element to that army will make it less balanced and I think that will be playing away from the BA strengths…but we will have to see in that regard.

Anyone else have thoughts on this or is just my Vindicator dislike evolving :)?

Email in: Possible alternate XV8 builds


Hi, Poly here again. Just wondering your thoughts on the fireknives 6-7. If you’re not familiar with the ATT classification system those are;

Fireknife 6
XV8 battlesuit
Twin-linked Plasma Rifle
Missile Pod

Fireknife 7
XV8 battlesuit
Twin-linked Missile Pod
Plasma Rifle

You’re giving up shots for increased accuracy in both cases, but unlike (say) deathrains you’re not sacrificing versatility. Do you think these are viable builds?

Poly

Sorry I’ve been quiet of late, thesis research is bogging me down as well as basketball playoffs (last night I came away with 3 grazes [one of which has needed a gauze], what I’m going to call a bruised rib [ok fine I just got hit in the stomach really hard…] and two nails torn off; I mean seriously if you want to stop me mark me man on man don’t just tackle me! :() and other stuff! Before I go to uni I’ll reply to Poly here and hopefully can post some more stuff later.

Honestly, not really. The MP/PR (fireknife) gives you the ability to shoot 9-12 shots from T1 @ BS3. BS3 armies seem to do fine all the time w/o TL (yes TL is better but at the points cost? no thanks). With these builds whilst you get the most reliable gun you want when you want it whilst still having the versatility of the MP/PR, you’re paying a lot more points for less shooting. Less shooting is not good :P.

In ahigher points game where you could get Shas’vre bodyguards with this sort of loadout (over more Piranhas/Broadsides) with multi-trackers it’s viable but I still think inefficient in points. On a normal MP/PR you’re paying 5 pts more for the TL-plasma/MP or 1 pt more for the TL-MP/plasma. Again they need the multi-tracker to make this work otherwise you’re losing firepower across the board.

MagicJuggler’s model

This deserved a place.

Armies in 5th: Tyranids Part 1: Anti-tank

Can’t be bothered writing about the Orks atm so doing Tyranids whilst I procrastinate my studies.

Well a lot of the internets thinks Tyranids suck still. They suck because they don’t have super anti-tank and frankly, they shouldn’t. They have enough AT to deal with armor at a reasonable rate whilst still relying a bit on their MCs. This is fine. Tyranids pwn you once you are on foot. And I mean pwn. Few armies can handle being on foot and dealing with Tyranids (SW and SM bikes jump to mind and a hybrid new BA list would possibly also be able to). Every other army needs that mobility and protection to not die a quick and terrible death from torrenting and in CC. If Tyranids like Tau, IG or SM could negate half of your mech in one turn, they would be ridiculus. So let’s look at how they do deal with armor.

So what is Tyranid anti-tank really all about. For the most part it is not about killing tanks, it’s about stopping them from moving or shooting. You want to get your MCs into combat ASAP and minimise heavy weapons heading your way. Outside of Zoanthropes, weight of attacks is the Tyranid player’s best bet to drop tanks but before such attacks can be brought to bear, the Mech player must have his advantage neutralised in some way and this is best done through the ranged weapons of Tyranid MCs. Let’s first look at their major anti-tank options however.

Between Zoans and Hive Guard you’ve got your good anti-light tank and anti-heavy tank settled but since they are the same slot you’re going to get one or the other. Taking both is going to limit you in application and make your army less flexible. This is bad. So you have to cover for the other type of anti-tank elsewhere and remember these are very important units which need to shoot but will attract a lot of attention.

So you’ve picked either HG or Zoans and I think this more than anything defines your army. Zoans on foot aren’t going to be using their lance powers anytime soon even w/Onslaught. Add in the fact you want to kill heavy tanks like LRs ASAP and Zoans are such a huge target, putting them in Spores seems better. Whilst they certainly can be used on foot, Spores seem their best bet. HG on the other hand are quite happy to run up and start tapping away at transports. Their lack of LoS and extra range gives them that much more ability to strike from range.

So outside of Zoans and HG what do we need for anti-mech at range. I’ve already said MCs are our best bet in close combat (particularly with scything talons) and are able to hold the big guns and shoot. So let’s look at each of the MCs. Tyrannofexes and Harpies are primarily fire support and both provide you with something you can’t get elsewhere. Harpies are mobile and far more accurate with their guns (twin-linked, ooo!) but are a lot weaker than your average MC. Tyrannofexes are stronger than your average MC and have a S10 gun. Oooo. These let you negate higher AVs either through side shots or pure strength but don’t add much in terms of CC ability. They also chew up points quite quickly so having 3 of each is going to be tough and leave you weak in CC. The more common MCs such as Tyrants and Carnifexes can take the Heavy VC or TL Devs w/Brainleech. These are designed to stop a tank from shooting/moving, not from destroying it. If these are taken in your army on foot the HVC is a perfect option whilst in a spore army the Devourers have enough shots to slow tanks down where their shorter range is less of a hinderance. These options are also capable of taking talons to augment their ability in combat and are fairly easy to intergrate into an army. The “best” close-combat MC is the Trygon but is unable to get much good shooting at range in relation to anti-tank. However, the ability to tunnel and 2 sets of talons can really put a scare into some mech armies which can’t deal with 18 T6 wounds popping up in front of them (make sure you use Hive Commander). The other MCs, Mawloc and Tervigon, aren’t too fantastic against mech. They can damage in combat but with lower WS they don’t like to get too close to PFists and they lack the ranged gun options to really do significant damage to mech.

So surrounding our main anti-tank through Elites (remember two squads can work there as taking suppliments such as Deathleaper or Venomthropes can be vital but this will be covered later) with the appropriate MCs is important. A pod list w/zoans would obviously prefer Trygons or Carnifexes w/TL Devs compared to a foot list w/HG preferring Harpies and TFexes. Remember though outside of those two elite selections and close combat, Tyranids are not great at anti-mech but rather want to stop you from shooting & moving. This is firesuppression/support and is often a forgotten concept by a lot of people. Look at what landspeeders can do for an army. Many people will claim they are sub-par to MM Attack Bikes but because of their vehicle status, speed and gun layout, it can take turns to actually stop them which allows the rest of your army to do what you wish. Tyranids want to stop the opposing army from moving/shooting whilst it gets across the board and in some list styles are across the board by T2.

I will endeavour to do the rest of the Ork articles before I get back to work on the Tyrand articles, never fear.

New BA funnery

I found this gem on Warseer. Post #21, top of the page. The guy is complaining the new BA codex is way OP. Anything is OP when you use a list like that lol.

I think the new BA dex will offer a lot of new list variants and hopefully make a hybrid/jump list viable but we shall see. The only thing I’m a bit anxious about is pure Mech simply being better for BA than SM but then as I said before, “these blue marines are really suffering from blue thirst!” To me it looks like another excellent codex which has a lot of options, is balanced and can compete whilst not making the other Imperial books obsolete (if you still want Pods/Termies go BT, TH/SS/raider go SM, Calvary/foot go SW, etc.).

I’m so tired of people complaining about GW and their books. Would you rather have a book where half the units aren’t usable unless you’re fooling around but I’m not going to spend X dollars on something I’m not going to use at a tournament so why would I buy those models? Eh this is making me want to do a quick look at Tyranids so new post!

Tau & Seeker Missiles & Suits.

Well Warseer is at it again. Apparently the idea of a HK alpha strike have trickled over to Warseer. There’s a couple pages of it but meh. Mainly look at getupandgo’s posts as he’s advocating it (let’s be fair here he’s also not advocating crisis suits and piranhas so he’s got the whole codex covered). Let’s see why this is a bad idea.

4+ to hit then 2+ to hit. You’ve got an extra roll, that’s not good. And that first roll, MUST be taken to be able to fire it. This seriously limits seeker missile usage as where do we get our MLs? On very expensive drones, Stealth Suits, FWs, Skyrays and Pathfinders. What are the only points viable or FoC slot viable units there? Pathfinders. You want to go and take Marker Drones, Stealth Suits/FWs or Skrays in 2k pts? Go for it. I’ll thank you and so will everyone else. That’s less Crisis/Broadsides/Hammerheads and overall killy for a couple S8 shots.

So we’ve got our pathfinders which can only shoot at one target. Well that’s not really good is it. Now we can take up to 3 PF squads but then we have the cost of no Piranhas. If you think you can live with this, go for it. When the TH/SS termies smash into your lines because you can’t delay them, well sorry lad. Hope those S8 AP3 shots come in handy.

The idea and concept is nice but it’s simply a waste of points. On Imperial armies you can launch a S8 alpha strike on T1 to help pop transports, slow the enemy and suppress their fire. Can’t do that with Tau w/o spending a lot of points. The genius of it on Imperial armies is you don’t have to spend a lot of points and you don’t have to buy units specifically for it. Tau do. Do not use it with Tau in a competitive environment because there are better Tau lists.

And more on Suits! I’ve explained this here and a lot at Warseer but scarvet asked:

I still can’t understand the claim the Deathrain is ineffective…let alone the argument of pathfinder>piranha….

I’m not really sure about the PF>piranhas argument but I think its from getupandgo. If so, well it’s silly. PF and Piranhas compete with each other and offer completely different things. I think a Tau list w/o Piranhas is weaker than a Tau list w/o PF but they both offer something unique to the list.

Now I’m just going to copy paste myself from warseer here but if anyone else would like to add something, please do.

The TL MP does what the whole army can do, it can damage armor. When you compare it directly to a MP/PR the MP/PR loses you out on the tiniest bit of anti-armor ability which you don’t really need for much, much improved duality.

In simple terms. MP/PR gets more similar shots. More shots is always better because of the way statistics works. Sure yours hit 75% of the time and mine hit 50% of the time but my ability for super good (or super bad) rolls is better than yours. You are maxed at 6 shots. I’m maxed at 12 shots. Add in markerlights and I can wipe a squad. You will never ever ever ever ever do that (for anyone above 6 men). For the increase in points and the minor ability lost against tanks + the AP2? Done.